Your new Torah: 613 vs 1050 commands

[robbyyoung]

Hey Robby, what would you describe as "justification by Law", and what would you describe as "living after the flesh"?

Hi dizerner,

Justification by The Law is trusting in the ceremonial works (shadows and types), for forgiveness of sins (works of the flesh) which Israel indulged themselves in constantly. We are to look to Christ (The Anti-Type) for deliverance and PRACTICE walking by The Spirit not the PRACTICE of fulfilling the lust of the flesh, then depending on rituals to cleanse us of our sins without any change of heart.

I think we have a new nature, but we have to learn how to live out of it, it's not fully automatic; living out of the new nature is acknowledging no good thing in the old nature, and it's having been dealt with on the Cross.

I agree. The Cross NOT ceremonial means is what justifies us.

Otherwise, when we are attempting to actually keep the commands of NT or OT, we fall under the principle of law, and begin living out of Adam, attempting to replace work of the Cross with our own good actions. Do you think it matters exactly how we attempt to be righteous?

Your above statement starts to confuse things. The Cross promotes righteous living, righteous living is being obedient to God, being obedient to God requires doing what He says, therefore, doing what He says is keeping His Commands. Any breakdown in this line of thinking will fall under The Works of the Flesh. Christians are not replacing The Cross, they are exercising the validity of its power TO SAVE by being led by the Spirit of God unto GOOD WORKS.

I think you are simply trying to separate a "cause and effect" of being obedient to God, which always produces GOOD WORKS.

God Bless.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[robbyyoung]

Robby thanks for your reply I appreciate it.

First I have a hard time fitting the idea of the ceremonial aspects of the Law alone into so many places were Law is described. I don't really see a place in Scripture that truly separates the moral and ceremonial aspects of the law, and even if there were such a thing, how would you know when each was being talked about?

Hi dizerner, I would like to focus on the above quote, because for the most part, everything you wrote is set upon it.

You asked me two questions:

1. What would I describe as justification by law?
2. What would I describe as living after the flesh?

I responded to the question by saying, "Justification by The Law is trusting in the ceremonial works, for forgiveness of sins..." You responded by saying, "I don't really see a place in Scripture that truly separates the moral and ceremonial aspects of The Law..."

Well neither do I, there's only one Law, however, ceremonial practices were reserved for The Jews ONLY. When these ceremonial laws were pushed on The Gentiles, The Apostles rejected this idea, for both Jew and Greek were to depend on faith in God in their obedience to the mandates imposed. Obedience to The Law requires faith in God, note the account of the Apostle Paul, Acts 21:20-23 "And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs." Now if you continue to read the account all the way through, it's all ceremonial and this is how The Jews exercised their FAITH in God concerning what Yeshua said concerning The Law, IT WILL NOT pass until all is fulfilled. The Jew who teaches another Jew to forsake these ordinaces, before the time, will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Cross does not promote righteous living,

Ok dizerner, I think you just want to be disagreeable towards me and that's fine. I don't know how anyone could say this. The Cross symbolizes many thing, one of which is righteouness. 1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed."

Here the cause of The Cross describes two effects. 1. It heals 2. And establishes righteous living

Take care and God Bless.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[Singalphile]

Hi, dizerner.

I am also a little confused about what you're saying. That is okay. However, I'm curious about how yours views work themselves out in your life, practically speaking. (The Bible is nothing if not practical, seems to me.)

So, questions: How do you overcome temptation in your own life? What steps, if any, do you take to avoid the sins that actually tempt you?

I hope that's not too personal. You don't need to be very specific, of course.

Thank you in advance.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[robbyyoung]

I think we should all be able to say along with Paul:

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Hi dizerner,

I enjoyed reading your personal testimony, The Body of Christ always benefits from such inspirations in our walk of faith towards God. I'm still not sure what exactly you are putting forth for us to learn from. I'm going to give you my understanding of the above reference you quoted.

"The works of the Law", Paul is eluding to when speaking to the Gentile Galatains, is the ceremonial practices. For he continues in the same verse to say, "even we" (Jews) are not justified by these ceremonies. I believe this whole idea of what Yeshua spoke of in Matt 5, concerning keeping "The Whole Law" until the end of the age, conflates with Heb 8:13, and the account in Acts 21 as "The Already but Not Yet" realities of the New Covenant.

In the above quote, The Works cannot represent the moral side of The Law. Else how can we reconcile The Moral Work of faith and love? If we DO NOT perform The Work of faith and love towards God, there IS NO salvation. I believe The Work being discussed pertains to equating the ceremonial practices (type and shadow) as being equal to Yeshua greater sacrifice. The Jewish hope was ONLY in Yeshua, however, the ceremonial practices MUST continue until The Already but Not Yet consummation of the Covenant judgement is realized. IMHO, Acts 21 shows me this is the case based on the actions of The Jews and Yeshua's own words in Matt 5. I contend that love and faith in God is a WORK, as James attest to. The Work of ceremonial practices in the absence of faith in Yeshua's sacrificial work to save is what's condemned. For I don't believe you can condemn The Work of faith and love required for salvation.

Your thoughts and God Bless.