James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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RICHinCHRIST
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James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by RICHinCHRIST » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:46 pm



I remember when Steve debated Tim Staples and Tim mentioned this verse. How can we really say, as evangelicals, that we are saved by faith alone? I've always explained this verse in that true faith will always express itself in works. But is that just a fancy way of dancing around the fact that works play a part in our salvation? Many of the passages contrasting faith vs. works in Paul's writings are "faith vs. the works of the Old Testament law". There are other works that are necessary for our salvation. And Paul lists many sins in his epistles which are works which can disqualify us to be saved. So it appears that works are much more important than we sometimes mention.

Thoughts?

dizerner

Re: James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by dizerner » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:36 am

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Paidion
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Re: James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:28 am

Paul clearly taught that good works are necessary for eternal life:

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek, for God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-10)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by Homer » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:15 pm

Hi Paidion,

Would you say "works" procure something or are they evidence of something?

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Re: James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:51 pm

The passage I quoted above seems to suggest that good works procure eternal life and lack of good works or self-serving evil works procure wrath and fury:
To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give eternal life but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
On the other hand, we are not being saved from wrongdoing or sin by self-effort. We are in the process of salvation from sin as we exercise faith in Messiah Jesus in order to appropriate God's enabling grace which makes it possible to live a consistently righteous life.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by dizerner » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:46 pm

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steve
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Re: James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by steve » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:34 pm

Wasn't Paul using this argument to lead up to the truth that no one lives up to justification in this way, but only by God's grace.
No. Although Paul does make the point, in Romans Three, that all people sin, that is not his point in Chapter Two. In fact, he specifically points to certain people who actually do keep the Law (2:13-15, 26-27). In Chapter Two, Paul is establishing that the Jews, though they have the Law, are not necessarily less sinful than are the Gentiles, who were never given the Law.

Of course, the Gentiles also sin (as Chapter Three acknowledges), but Paul and his readers obviously know of some Gentiles (Christian ones) who have the Law written in their hearts, and who, therefore "do the things contained in the Law" (v.14); who "keep the righteous requirements of the Law" (v.26); and who "fulfill the Law" (v.27). These people, as he says later, are those who "walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" (8:4). There is no place in Romans, or elsewhere, where Paul indicates that keeping the Law is an impossibility.

I do not believe, though, that salvation is earned by obedience. I believe that only the obedient are saved (Heb.5:9; cf. Acts 5:32). However, I believe what saves us is our faith—which can also be translated "faithfulness." In terms of relationship with God, faith and fidelity are indistinguishable. Saving faith inevitably produces works of obedience (Rom.1:5; Gal.5:6; James 2:14-20; Heb.11:7-8, 17, etc.), so that a judgment of works will reliably reveal who had such faith as this. That is why every passage in the New Testament about the final judgment says that it will be a judgment of the works of every person.

dizerner

Re: James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by dizerner » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:28 pm

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Re: James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by jeremiah » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:19 pm

Rich,
Have you read any of NT Wright's stuff on justification? Both his and George MacDonald's teaching on it (though not identical) have helped me a great deal. And many congratulations to you and your bride brother.

Grace and peace to you.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Re: James 2:24, Works, and Salvation

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:45 am

RICHinCHRIST wrote:

I remember when Steve debated Tim Staples and Tim mentioned this verse. How can we really say, as evangelicals, that we are saved by faith alone? I've always explained this verse in that true faith will always express itself in works. But is that just a fancy way of dancing around the fact that works play a part in our salvation? Many of the passages contrasting faith vs. works in Paul's writings are "faith vs. the works of the Old Testament law". There are other works that are necessary for our salvation. And Paul lists many sins in his epistles which are works which can disqualify us to be saved. So it appears that works are much more important than we sometimes mention.

Thoughts?
Hi RICHinCHRIST,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

IMHO, here's the grace of God that initiates any possibly for anyone to respond to the Gospel. Once DEAD (no ability to do anything), God's grace brings us to life to respond to The Gospel. IMHO, this aspect of our salvation is clearly a sole WORK of God. This sets up vs. 8-9 establishing who the initiator IS.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

IMHO, I also believe it's possible "The Works" Paul is eluding to here is a reference to the Jewish idea of The Work of The ceremonial Laws under the Old Covenant. The audience in the Eph 2:11-19 speaks to the scattered tribes who are among The Gentile nations (the gowy), becoming Gentiles themselves. I can further develop this later in order to provide proof, but for now I'll try not to get side-tracked.

Next,

vs.10 sets the precedence concerning what The Grace of God will produce, "Good Works". These works contain the moral laws of God, in which James attests to. Therefore, unless you are a proponent of the OSAS crowd, you could absolutely chose to reject The Grace of God by having a dead faith without "Good Works" as a sustainer (this would be our part in a saving relationship with God). Therefore, good works are inherently required in order to sustain ones salvation. The obivious exceptions are babies/children, death bed and mentally ill people whom God accounts for according to His will.

Your thoughts and God Bless.
Last edited by robbyyoung on Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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