1 Timothy 4:10

[Paidion]

Thanks, Homer.
I was aware of the many Greek homonyms.
The verb ἀφιημι comes to mind. It means:

1) permit
2) send away
3) leave or depart or forsake
4) forgive

When we examine the passages in which the word applies, we find these meanings are usually understood from their contexts—although there is confusion in some contexts as to whether the meaning is "leave" or "send away." A good example of this is Matthew 13:36.

Then He left the crowds and went into the house. (NASB)
Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. (NKJV)

I think there is also some confusion in some cases whether the word means "forgive sin" or "forsake sin." But where it means "permit," it is clear that that is the meaning in every case.

However, unlike the word ἀφιημι, the translation of μαλιστα as "especially" fits every context.

I don't know how a person would go about proving that a Greek word cannot be a homonym. It's a bit like trying to prove that the god Zeus doesn't exist. There's no way to do it.

[robbyyoung]

Hi Robby,

However you never addressed the problem with 1 Timothy 5:17. That is (malista):

Hi Homer,

Maybe you should read it again.

Blessings.

[robbyyoung]

Thank you, Robby. Good post! I see it the same way, and tried to say this, but I was probably too brief, as I usually am. Your expression of it was in greater detail, and that often makes it more effective. I also agree that elders, overseers, and pastors are three names for the same position. Each of the words has a different meaning, and may represent the function which is emphasized in the ministry of a particular leader.

I am amazed that we agree in so many areas while sharply disagreeing in eschatology. Not that that matters.

Hi Paidion,

Hey, no worries. You are very welcome if I helped in any fashion. I definitely appreciate your understanding of the greek, for it can be quite challenging and laborious when sifting through the scholarly papers to eventually come to you own conclusions. As far as eschatology is concerned, I bet if we went slow enough, we would most likely concede that the both of us can have "reasonable" arguments.

God Bless.

[Homer]

Hi Robby,

You wrote:

Elders—"leaders in the church", is used 72 times in the New Testament.
Bishops—"guardian or overseer", is used 5 times in the New Testament and plural in nature.
Pastor—"shepherd," which means to protect, feed, care for, and lead. It is only found once in the New Testament. (Eph. 4:11)

No disagreement here, but I would say it differently:

Elder - describes person, meaning mature Christian
Bishop - name of office
Pastor - the work done

I have read your reply more than once and still do not see an answer as to whether there was, envisioned by Paul, an elder position that was not a role of preaching/teaching but solely an administrative position.

You wrote:

Nevertheless, ALL ELDERS TEACH and SHOULD TEACH. Time and Talent, along with the fact that The Holy Spirit of God is free and sovereign in his bestowal of gifts (1Cor. 12:11) for the edification of the church, do allow for both distinctions in the context of 1Tim 5:17. Therefore, there is no confusion on the matter, for it is clear; some elders discharged their duties exceptionally well, and were thus to be considered worthy of “double honor”.

What do you mean by "both distinctions"? Some who preach/teach and others who are administrators?Certainly there are various gifts in the church but that does not necessarily have any thing to do with being an elder.

Of this larger set of elders, it is especially important that a smaller subset, those who work particularly hard at preaching and teaching, be recompensed accordingly.

Please read 1 Timothy 5:17 again and note that all the elders contemplated receive double honor. The only elders being discussed are those who "rule well"; some work hard at preaching and teaching and the others do what?

Be blessed!

[robbyyoung]

No disagreement here, but I would say it differently:

Elder - describes person, meaning mature Christian
Bishop - name of office
Pastor - the work done

Hi Homer,

I don't believe I'm giving an unreasonable reply this time. If so, I suspect that you can provide ample scripture to correct.

All the above is THE SAME OFFICE. An Elder IS An Overseer(Bishop), and Pastor (Shepherd). Please note 1 Peter 5:1-5, also Acts 20:17, & vs. 28! Those who attempt to make ONE CALLING into THREE distinct individuals are simply in error, IMHO.

I have read your reply more than once and still do not see an answer as to whether there was, envisioned by Paul, an elder position that was not a role of preaching/teaching but solely an administrative position.

This above statement doesn't represent what I've said at all. Paul is addressing ELDERS who were excellent Overseers, Shepherds, and Teachers. There is NO SUCH THING as an Elder SOLELY in a administrative role. We know from the biblical record that an Elder (or Overseer/Pastor) must be able to teach and more... (1 Timothy 3:1-2).

You wrote:

Nevertheless, ALL ELDERS TEACH and SHOULD TEACH. Time and Talent, along with the fact that The Holy Spirit of God is free and sovereign in his bestowal of gifts (1Cor. 12:11) for the edification of the church, do allow for both distinctions in the context of 1Tim 5:17. Therefore, there is no confusion on the matter, for it is clear; some elders discharged their duties exceptionally well, and were thus to be considered worthy of “double honor”.

What do you mean by "both distinctions"? Some who preach/teach and others who are administrators?Certainly there are various gifts in the church but that does not necessarily have any thing to do with being an elder.

The distinction of:

1. The aspiration to become an Elder and meet the qualifications.
2. An Elder gifted through the charismata who especially labour in the word and doctrine, such as:

a. word of wisdom
b. word of knowledge
c. faith
d. gifts of healings
e. working of miracles
f. prophecy
g. discerning of spirits
h. tongues
i. interpretations of tongues

Therefore, the Bible tell us that these 9 gifts of the Spirit were available to all believers, YES - THAT MEANS ELDERS TOO, but then it takes it one step further and tells us that they could actually try and stir these 9 gifts up with the Lord.

Here are 5 very good verses telling them to not only desire spiritual gifts, but to also not be afraid to try and stir these gifts up with the Lord:

1. “Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy.” (1 Corinthians 14:39)
2. “… and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.” (1 Corinthians 14:1)
3. “Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophecies.” (1 Thessalonians 5:19)
4. “Do not neglect the gift that is in you … Meditate on these things, give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all.” (1 Timothy 4:14)
5. “Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.” (2 Timothy 1:6)

Hence, Paul's astute observation of these excellent ELDERS, who rule well (that means they are actively exercising their qualifications) and ESPECIALLY those who labour in the word and doctrine through the charismata. For what other "labor" could be in view. Don't you think Paul knows what "labor" is, being himself an ELDER? You could obviously be an excellent Elder without the added intensity of the sought out charismata. Paul is recognizing these sub-set of the whole of ELDERS.

Please read 1 Timothy 5:17 again and note that all the elders contemplated receive double honor. The only elders being discussed are those who "rule well"; some work hard at preaching and teaching and the others do what?

The folly in this whole debate is to take the unbiblical position that ELDERS hold some administrative role, divorced from THE QUALIFICATION of holding the office in the first place.

"Malista" therefore stands as "Chiefly, Above all, especially" for there is no controversy within the immediate and greater context, other than the fabrications of modern day church polity to empower churchianity.

God Bless.

[dizerner]

Guys I'll admit you make some pretty strong points. I do find it kind of odd that the two other most ambiguous uses of malista are found in the same letter, but I wouldn't press the point.