Who Were The Israelites?

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RoyHobs
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Who Were The Israelites?

Post by RoyHobs » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:34 am

This is a comment from a different Post which brought up another point of discussion:

Roy, I presume that the reason you held back from linking to the last article is related to other ideas that the writer espouses. I certainly hope so.

The following quote is bizarre enough of an example as to require no further commentary:



There are even some in Israel Identity today who claim that race doesn’t really matter, while the truth is, race is everything, and only White Israelites can be Christians!


Despite the flagrant racism and my efforts to find merit among any of the writer's arguments, I remain unpersuaded. He places a lot of weight on the idea that the Hebrew word for prostitute should instead be understood as an innkeeper. In making his argument he draws from Josephus and a targumic reference. I'm not sure that he is familiar with the language behind the Targum as he has Adam Clarke claiming that the phrase reads אחחא פנדקיתא while the phrase that he appears to refer to is actually איתתא פנדקיתא. (Presumably the text was scanned and the symbols were misread.) While the phrase does seem to relate to being an innkeeper (or as he suggests "tavern keeper"), this is a targumic insertion that is reasonably chalked up to an apologetic agenda. I don't know how familiar you are with the Targums?

The titles of some of the articles on the site suggest that the operator of the site might look unfavorably toward the Jewish race, so I don't know why he would place sufficient confidence in the targumic rendering (or Josephus' records) as to read the meaning back into the words of Scripture. It is highly plausible that Josephus follows the targumic tradition in describing Rahab as an innkeeper. This simply cannot be derived from the biblical account. Earlier I think you wrote something about letting Scripture interpret Scripture?

The article was somewhat lengthy. Since I've accessed a few links and read over the material you've suggested and found these articles unsatisfactory to substantiate your claims, I would appreciate receiving any further support for your position directly from you (not from another source). I don't know if you endorse the content of these sites, or possibly you are aware that your own arguments are incapable of withstanding honest scrutiny?

On another note: Although I simply read the article and didn't probe other articles on the site, by the looks of things the author might adhere to "serpent seed" theology? Are you of that persuasion as well?


The article Referenced here is: http://emahiser.christogenea.org/watchm ... april-2008


Hi StevenD,

I placed the comment under "Anthropology" because for me personally...................I would be interested in what other people thought of the question I posed above --

Who Were The Israelites.

I stumbled upon this topic strangely through studying the events of September 11, 2001. Perhaps the conversation might come back to this.......we will see.

At the same time I was studying my family Genealogy. I guess I just began to be curious about where I came from etc., etc. Since I am White/Caucasian, I became interested in my Culture. My father is Welsh and my mother part Russian. This all led me to a book -- The March of the Titans by Arthur Kemp. Fascinating book, but not really related here to this discussion. MOTT is a book about the White Race. That is pretty much it.

Somewhere during this research, I stumbled upon the statement -- Jesus was not a Jew. This certainly caught my attention. I was a Zionist Christian at that time. I was highly offended, but not timid to follow through and read just what this author meant.

I can't remember the exact article, but I found this one that seems to be mostly what I read at the time -- http://www.truth-books.com/jesus_not_a_jew.html

I just read this one particular article. I know nothing about the site in it's entirety. Please don't judge me or judge this particular article based on what the author may say about other issues.

Long story short.........................this ultimately led me to a theology referred to as "Christian Identity" or "British Israelism". BI going back decades. I have a book written in the 1800's with the thesis of proving Caucasians to be Israelites. There are plenty more modern day books written on this topic.


If I were to recommend one single book dedicated to this particular topic it would be -- "Tracing our Ancestors" by Frederick Haberman.

http://www.amazon.com/Tracing-Our-Ances ... k+Haberman

Another book I recommend which you can find online -- "Who is Esau-Edom" by Charles Weisman. http://www.scribd.com/doc/46566146/Who- ... dom#scribd

More sources: http://www.artisanpublishers.com/biblic ... 25660.html



I DO NOT ENDORSE ANY ORGANIZED MINISTRY REFERING TO THEMSELVES AS CHRISTIAN IDENTITY. Please don't judge me for what others who espouse CI may say about other issues.


Now I'd like to shift the focus back to the particular comment left by StevenB.

StevenB..............what are your thoughts on the Serpent Seed doctrine?

Jesus said, "you are of your father the devil". Would you interpret this to mean 'spiritual' rather than 'literal'?

I have read arguments for both. At this time I'm leaning toward the "spiritual". It is a fascinating discussion for sure.

Curious..................what do you find to be "Flagrant Racism" from that particular website? Could you define "Racist"?

If I wanted to marry only a White woman, would you consider me racist? If I wanted to live on a street with only white people, would you consider me racist? When White families flee to Whiter communities -- called White Flight -- do you think these people are Racist?

I've lived in Southern California and now I reside in Atlanta Georgia. I am moving to North Idaho because it is unsafe here. North Idaho is predominately White. Am I a racist?

Curious your thoughts.

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Paidion
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Re: Who Were The Israelites?

Post by Paidion » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:03 pm

What is a Jew?
Is a Jew a person of a particular ethnicity who speaks Yiddish at home but listens to Hebrew in the synagogue, who eats only Kosher food, etc.? Or is a Jew a person who holds to a particular religion, practises circumcision of male infants, Bar Mitzvah at age 13, etc. ? Certainly the former are called "Jews" even if they are atheists. On the other hand, I had a Christian friend I knew in my youth who, later in life, married a Jewish person and became a Jew herself. I guess it can be either one or the other or both.

There's an interesting correspondence to Mennonites.
Is a Mennonite a person who speaks Plat Deutch at home but listens to high German at church, dresses in a particular way, and eats Pluma Moos? Or is a Mennonite a person who has joined a Mennonite Church, has been baptized as an adult, and like his spiritual ancestors, believes in baptism of adults only, and practises non-resistance, etc. (Of course, I realize there is a wide variety of differences in the practices of modern Mennonites).
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morbo3000
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Re: Who Were The Israelites?

Post by morbo3000 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:34 pm

Paidion wrote:There's an interesting correspondence to Mennonites.
Is a Mennonite a person who speaks Plat Deutch at home but listens to high German at church, dresses in a particular way, and eats Pluma Moos? Or is a Mennonite a person who has joined a Mennonite Church, has been baptized as an adult, and like his spiritual ancestors, believes in baptism of adults only, and practises non-resistance, etc. (Of course, I realize there is a wide variety of differences in the practices of modern Mennonites).
Interesting analogy. I was the latter.

In my 20's, I became enamored with Anabaptism, and halfway through the life of our church plant, I became a Mennonite pastor, and rebranded our church as a Mennonite church. I always told people "we aren't horse and buggy Mennonites." But it was impossible to shake.

It was also very difficult to break in. Our area conference wasn't old order. The theology and practice filled the gamut between conservative and modern/liberal. They -were- excited to have new people who valued the theology and heritage. But, I was always an outsider. And it was worse, far worse, at the last church I pastored. They were too ingrown.

When I moved back into the area, we returned to the congregation that sponsored our church plant. They were like family to us. But we now recognized the unhealthy family dynamics that materialize in a generational church, and it bit us in the ass one more time. We never went back.
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RoyHobs
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Re: Who Were The Israelites?

Post by RoyHobs » Sat Jan 16, 2016 11:55 am

Paidion wrote:What is a Jew?
It is a weaponized word that is for sure. So weaponized that even the slightest criticism of organized Jewry brings the label "Anti-Semite", and thus the facts presented are quickly silenced. And in some foreign countries you get jailed. Even in the United States a person would lose their job by pointing out Jewish crime and or Jewish lies.

I believe what the writers intend to say by asking the question is "who are Israelites".

And what did Jesus mean by the Synagogue of Satan -- Revelation 2:9 and 3:9.

I really think "Who is Esau-Edom" is a great primer for any serious student of the Bible.

RoyHobs
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Re: Who Were The Israelites?

Post by RoyHobs » Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:24 pm

Interesting Discussion on the origin of the word "Jew" --

http://www.overlordsofchaos.com/html/or ... d_jew.html

Excerpt:

The word "Jew" is a relatively modern invention used, seemingly indiscriminately and interchangeably, by 18th century redactors to describe Israelites, Judahites and Judaeans. It first appeared in these eighteenth century Bibles and it first appears within these redactions in 2 Kings 16:6 .... in an episode that describes a war between Israel and Judah: when Rezin, king of Syria and Pekah, king of Israel went to war with wicked Ahaz, king of Judah. The Syrians "drave the Jews from Elath" who were in possession of it and so here is the first time that the inhabitants of the kingdom of Judah are called "Jews" when more properly they should be called Judahites. However, the point here is this: the very first time the word "Jew" is found in the modern Bible, they are at war with Israel.

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jaydam
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Re: Who Were The Israelites?

Post by jaydam » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:23 pm

RoyHobs wrote:Interesting Discussion on the origin of the word "Jew" --

http://www.overlordsofchaos.com/html/or ... d_jew.html

Excerpt:

The word "Jew" is a relatively modern invention used, seemingly indiscriminately and interchangeably, by 18th century redactors to describe Israelites, Judahites and Judaeans. It first appeared in these eighteenth century Bibles and it first appears within these redactions in 2 Kings 16:6 .... in an episode that describes a war between Israel and Judah: when Rezin, king of Syria and Pekah, king of Israel went to war with wicked Ahaz, king of Judah. The Syrians "drave the Jews from Elath" who were in possession of it and so here is the first time that the inhabitants of the kingdom of Judah are called "Jews" when more properly they should be called Judahites. However, the point here is this: the very first time the word "Jew" is found in the modern Bible, they are at war with Israel.
I'm beginning to fear that I am going to get picked up on the terror watch list the more links of your's that I click.

I have a question for you based off your links you share, and I would like an outright answer.

Are you against interracial marriage?

RoyHobs
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Re: Who Were The Israelites?

Post by RoyHobs » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:40 am

jaydam wrote:I'm beginning to fear that I am going to get picked up on the terror watch list the more links of your's that I click.

How so?
jaydam wrote:Are you against interracial marriage?
Not sure..........still working on it. The Israelites were commanded not to race mix. Is this an everlasting command........not sure yet.

This is why I started this thread in the first place -- looking for studied opinions.

I have studied the theory that Israelites were the White Europeans of the first century (as just a basic summary statement). The evidence is hard to ignore. What I haven't seen is a case against this theory. There is a group of black people who claim 'they' are the Israelites.........but I find their evidence wanting.

I am still in the process of trying to figure out what happens next when a person comes to the conclusion that the Israelites were of a Caucasian race. This is why I became interested in my own genealogy. My earthy father is Welsh. There is a good bit of evidence proving the Welsh thought of themselves as Hebrews in language and tradition. Fascinating topic all together -- That I might be a direct descendant of one of the 12 brothers of Abraham.

I have been perusing the forums asking the question and no one seems to be interested in proving the theory wrong.

I am working my way through a book written in 1889 --

"Anglo-Israel, Or the Saxon Race Proved to Be the Lost Tribes of Israel, in Nine Lectures. by W.H. Poole." The evidence is hard to ignore.

"Tracing our Ancestors" by Haberman is a more updated synopsis. Very compelling.


Just curious............why are you afraid of the links I posted?

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Michelle
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Re: Who Were The Israelites?

Post by Michelle » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:12 am

Huh. You ARE interesting, Roy. I thought you were obsessed with non-virgins, but I was wrong; your interests are varied and unusual.
I am still in the process of trying to figure out what happens next when a person comes to the conclusion that the Israelites were of a Caucasian race.
Do you have any preliminary ideas? Have you learned what the authors whose works you are reading have to say?
-- That I might be a direct descendant of one of the 12 brothers of Abraham.
I'm not sure who the 12 brothers of Abraham are.

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Homer
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Re: Who Were The Israelites?

Post by Homer » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:04 am

Never understood this thing with genealogy, that is from a racial/ethnic standpoint. Since I am English Scotch Irish (I think) on my dad's side and German ("black" Dutch Calvinist) on my mom's and 1/32 Choctaw Indian I guess it doesn't matter much - I'm a mongrel. But it is interesting to hear about what my ancestors did. For example the grand (unsure how many "greats to put in there) parent who was captured by the Confederate Army in Arkansas, managed to escape and walked home to Missouri at night, barefooted, while hiding during the day. But if he was a Jew or from outer Mongolia how would that make me a better or worse Christian? We are not told to marry only our race. Folks make a big deal of that and say nothing about marrying an unbeliever.

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jaydam
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Re: Who Were The Israelites?

Post by jaydam » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:56 pm

RoyHobs wrote:
jaydam wrote:I'm beginning to fear that I am going to get picked up on the terror watch list the more links of your's that I click.

How so?
It was meant to be somewhat facetious given some of the ideas on the sites you link - such as "pure" race ideology - and how they could be classified as religious extremism.
Not sure..........still working on it. The Israelites were commanded not to race mix. Is this an everlasting command........not sure yet.
So, what happens to someone who has inter-racially married and then becomes a convert? Are they to divorce? What about if they already have mixed children?
"Anglo-Israel, Or the Saxon Race Proved to Be the Lost Tribes of Israel, in Nine Lectures. by W.H. Poole." The evidence is hard to ignore.
Its convenient when you "discover" your own race is of God's chosen people, and your enemies just happen to be found to be the enemies of God's people...

From what I've read Poole decided his British lineage was Israelite while their religious opponents (Irish Catholics) came from the Canaanites. Seems suspicious that his study just happened to align itself with his contemporary friends and foes. But this happens a lot. Each culture places their contemporary dynamics into their hermeneutic to some degree.

Can you find a study by someone who believes in the continuation of Israel's lineage, and their study culminates in their discovery that they are NOT of the chosen race?

Probably not.

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