God's grace and your obedience

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:55 pm

jeremiah wrote:
Jacob wrote:Some believe unbelievers will end up in the lake of fire. I believe this to be Biblical.

I agree that it's biblical.

The disagreement is over the nature of hell after Judgement Day. Is it a place purely for the punishment of those who would not obey the truth—and that's it, without end? Or is this aionian punishment a punishment unto the purity and restoration of God's own creature? I believe the scriptures would have us to see the latter as God's intentions, that he may at the last be all in all.

Anyway brother, I apologize that your thread got hijacked for yet another quibble about hell here. Hopefully, it'll get back on track. God bless you.
Maybe it was important. But I don't want to take away from God's word.

Are you thinking about rewards? I don't know what refining entails. It doesn't sound like the lake of fire. The important thing is if what we do is burned up or if it lasts. It is good if what we do lasts.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

Singalphile
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by Singalphile » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:02 pm

Going back to a previous discussion ...

I can think of various reasons why we should rethink "hell" these days (if we're going to affirm an opinion about it):

1. Most of us were not really taught about hell. At least I wasn't. I just picked it up somehow by age 10 and/or learned about it from movies and TV shows, which isn't a good way to accept an idea.

1. As a "protestant", my own understanding of Scripture is more important than any other man's declarations. We have no reason to adhere to a more (or less) popular view.

2. Few, if any, Christians in the last 1,500 years or so have had anything remotely close to the Biblical resources and knowledge that we now have in this generation.

3. As printing and reading first become common, and for 100s of years after until recently, the unrivaled English Bible contained the word "hell" about 55 times. (The earlier Wycliffe and Geneva translations were similar.) That count has dropped to around 17 in nearly all modern translations. This new information merits further investigation.

4. Upon investigation, it is at least arguable that the Bible simply does not teach us about "hell". Some on all sides say it's plain, but I would argue that if it does teach it, then we are all better teachers than the Bible. (I could demonstrate that, I think.) That needs to be factored into any opinion about the matter, imo.

Between ECT and CI, I don't know which would be worse - not that that's the question - for the saved or the damned. They both are horrible when contemplated . In a rethinkinghell.com podcast with Chris Date and Jerry Walls, Walls (who believes in a hell/purgatory hybrid with post-mortem salvation) argues that his version of the so-called traditional view is more consistent with God's love than the so-called annihilationist view of hell. In any case, there's lot of emotion on all sides.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:21 pm

Singalphile wrote:Going back to a previous discussion ...

I can think of various reasons why we should rethink "hell" these days (if we're going to affirm an opinion about it):

1. Most of us were not really taught about hell. At least I wasn't. I just picked it up somehow by age 10 and/or learned about it from movies and TV shows, which isn't a good way to accept an idea.

1. As a "protestant", my own understanding of Scripture is more important than any other man's declarations. We have no reason to adhere to a more (or less) popular view.

2. Few, if any, Christians in the last 1,500 years or so have had anything remotely close to the Biblical resources and knowledge that we now have in this generation.

3. As printing and reading first become common, and for 100s of years after until recently, the unrivaled English Bible contained the word "hell" about 55 times. (The earlier Wycliffe and Geneva translations were similar.) That count has dropped to around 17 in nearly all modern translations. This new information merits further investigation.

4. Upon investigation, it is at least arguable that the Bible simply does not teach us about "hell". Some on all sides say it's plain, but I would argue that if it does teach it, then we are all better teachers than the Bible. (I could demonstrate that, I think.) That needs to be factored into any opinion about the matter, imo.

Between ECT and CI, I don't know which would be worse - not that that's the question - for the saved or the damned. They both are horrible when contemplated . In a rethinkinghell.com podcast with Chris Date and Jerry Walls, Walls (who believes in a hell/purgatory hybrid with post-mortem salvation) argues that his version of the so-called traditional view is more consistent with God's love than the so-called annihilationist view of hell. In any case, there's lot of emotion on all sides.
I believe that to be considered saved a person must be born again. A person born again by the Spirit of God has the Holy Spirit in them and is saved.

John 3:3, 7 NASB - 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." ... 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

1 Peter 1:3, 23 NASB - 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ... 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans 8:9 NASB - 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Hebrews 9:27 KJV - 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

Singalphile
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by Singalphile » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:45 pm

I agree, JacobMartinMertens, if I understand you correctly.

Imo, there is a punishment that is described in terms of finality (e.g., "destruction", "end", "perish", "death", "burn up", etc.), too strongly, pervasively, and often to leave room for subsequent repentance and salvation. So I do not agree with Walls' opinion, if I'm understanding him correctly.

(Though for reasons that many of us here have argued about for years, I still think I could be wrong.)
Last edited by Singalphile on Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:56 pm

Singalphile wrote:I agree, JacobMartinMertens, if I understand you correctly.

Imo, there is a punishment that is described in terms of finality (e.g., "destruction", "end", "perish", "death", "burn up", etc.), too strongly, pervasively, and often to leave room for subsequent repentance and salvation. So I do not agree with Wells' opinion, if I'm understanding him correctly.

(Though for reasons that many of us here have argued about for years, I still think I could be wrong.)
I don't believe a person can repent after they die.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Paidion
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by Paidion » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:55 pm

Jacob wrote:I don't believe a person can repent after they die.
Why do you disbelieve that post-mortem repentance is possible? Can you quote even ONE scripture that indicates death as being the cut-off point after which there is no hope?

The best I have ever heard in an effort to find such a scripture is the following:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb 9:27,28)

In his effort, the searcher fixes on the clause, "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." This we all know—that a person dies, and sometime afterward (in my opinion after his resurrection), he faces judgment. But there is nothing in the passage that states what happens after the judgment. Nothing at all that indicates that there is no possibility of repenting after the judgment.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:58 pm

Paidion wrote:
Jacob wrote:I don't believe a person can repent after they die.
Why do you disbelieve that post-mortem repentance is possible? Can you quote even ONE scripture that indicates death as being the cut-off point after which there is no hope?

The best I have ever heard in an effort to find such a scripture is the following:

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb 9:27,28)

In his effort, the searcher fixes on the clause, "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." This we all know—that a person dies, and sometime afterward (in my opinion after his resurrection), he faces judgment. But there is nothing in the passage that states what happens after the judgment. Nothing at all that indicates that there is no possibility of repenting after the judgment.
There is nothing in scripture that indicates differently from what I have said and this scripture you have quoted, which is where you are speculating.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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