God's grace and your obedience

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:00 am

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:If you read the Bible you will benefit greatly.
You mean I should put "work" into reading my Bible? I thought there was no work...
...deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope
...Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Deny, live, look, flee, pursue... Seems I have some things I should work at?
If you are able to read you can read anything in the Bible, and I would recommend Romans to you because of your questions. I believe Paul does a good job of answering them in this treatise on the gospel.

But there is no work to be saved. Do you understand that Jesus died for you that your sins would be forgiven?

1 Peter 3:18 NASB - 18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

I just remembered some words from the following verse in 1 Peter.

1 Peter 1:9 NASB - 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

The following verse from Romans may be one you would want to memorize. But you don't need to memorize any verses either. Reading the Bible and memorizing verses can help you grow in your faith.

Romans 4:5 NASB - 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Do you know if you are saved? Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. If you have faith that is good. Many think they are saved, but they have not believed the gospel. Faith and belief are similar.

Romans 3:23 NASB - 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:23 NASB - 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 17:3 NASB - 3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Reading 1 John may help you because the following verse is found in it. It is a challenging read.

1 John 5:13 NASB - 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Paul is good for many reasons, but one of them is that he is the apostle to the Gentiles. Peter and Paul ministered to both Jews and Gentiles. Paul went to the Gentiles (Jews and Gentiles in Gentile lands, so the Gentiles (Gentiles are non-Jews)) and helped them to understand the gospel, with the result that many believed and became obedient to God in word and deed.

Romans 15:18 NASB - 18 For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed,

I don't see this as work to share with you. I know you are looking for someone to talk with about the gospel rather than reading something you are unfamiliar with. If you want freedom from sin and believe you don't have it yet I would recommend confessing your sin to God, confessing Jesus as Lord, and reading Romans 6 whether you read all of Romans or not. You must understand grace to understand this. I am assuming you are a new Christian or want to count the cost of following Jesus.

Romans 6:1-23 NASB - 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

dizerner

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by dizerner » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:04 am

Awesome answer, Jacob. You are leading a person to the grace of God, and that will make them hunger for the Word.

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jaydam
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jaydam » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:13 am

JacobMartinMertens wrote:
jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:If you read the Bible you will benefit greatly.
You mean I should put "work" into reading my Bible? I thought there was no work...
...deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope
...Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
Deny, live, look, flee, pursue... Seems I have some things I should work at?
If you are able to read you can read anything in the Bible, and I would recommend Romans to you because of your questions.
Don't mistake my questions as ignorance. I've simply been leading to a point.

Certainly it is by grace, but there is also work to be done.

All that messy talk of Paul about running lest you become disqualified... Bringing and keeping your body in check... Self discipline work which, if ignored, can disqualify someone.

Then we can go from 1 Corinthians 9, to James and see more about how in the absence of work is problematic...

Even the verses you gave have actions (work) for us to do.

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:16 am

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:
jaydam wrote:

Deny, live, look, flee, pursue... Seems I have some things I should work at?
If you are able to read you can read anything in the Bible, and I would recommend Romans to you because of your questions.
Don't mistake my questions as ignorance. I've simply been leading to a point.

Certainly it is by grace, but there is also work to be done.

All that messy talk of Paul about running lest you become disqualified... Bringing and keeping your body in check... Self discipline work which, if ignored, can disqualify someone.

Then we can go from 1 Corinthians 9, to James and see more about how in the absence of work is problematic...

Even the verses you gave have actions (work) for us to do.
You have here demonstrated you know something about scripture. In regard to your last statement, did you accept this verse I posted in my last post to you?

Romans 4:5 NASB - 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

edit- I have read 1 Corinthians 9 here and I don't see it saying what you are saying. You may be misreading it. Maybe it is just what I am seeing that you might mean that I don't see when I read it.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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jaydam
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jaydam » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:27 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:Romans 4:5 NASB - 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Contextually, your passage in Romans is dealing with attaining justification by the Mosaic Law. This is seen in Romans 4:13.
edit- I have read 1 Corinthians 9 here and I don't see it saying what you are saying. You may be misreading it. Maybe it is just what I am seeing that you might mean that I don't see when I read it.
Consider 1Co 9:27 - Paul says that he brings his body under control lest he become disqualified.

Perhaps we are speaking past each other on this topic.

I agree that in attaining salvation, the Bible says all our good works are good to us as filthy rags. But this verse cannot be used to dismiss the importance of good works all together.

You should be taking the Bible as a complete narrative. The complete narrative looks to a lifestyle (which takes work) that is consistent with the follower of Christ.

Let me give a recent example from my life. I used to be addicted to drugs before becoming a Christian. Last year I had major surgery. Due to complications I was given strong pain killers. Instantly my body became hooked again after being clean for years. However, after my medical need for the pain killers passed, I went off them cold turkey. I went through serious withdrawals, and it took work to stay disciplined and bring my body under my control, but I put the work in. Certainly my work was supported by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, but it was still work I had to do to maintain sobriety and thus a lifestyle submitted to my king rather than drugs, and conducive to my calling as a child of God.

Maybe we are working with different definitions of the term work, but I would consider work to be in effect, "effort it takes on my part." And I do not see in the Bible where I am allowed to ride God's grace absent contributed effort from my end.

I've seen plenty of believers brought to salvation who put no work in to resist sin because they are told the Christian life is grace without work. Thus, they succumb every weekend to alcohol's call, believing that either God's grace will cover it, or one day his grace will free them from it. But either way, they have been taught to not simply put the work in to set the bottle down, sit at home alone rather than go to the bar where they know they cannot resist, or take other steps of "work" to stop...

Maybe I am not eloquent enough to explain myself clearly...

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:47 pm

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:Romans 4:5 NASB - 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Contextually, your passage in Romans is dealing with attaining justification by the Mosaic Law. This is seen in Romans 4:13.
edit- I have read 1 Corinthians 9 here and I don't see it saying what you are saying. You may be misreading it. Maybe it is just what I am seeing that you might mean that I don't see when I read it.
Consider 1Co 9:27 - Paul says that he brings his body under control lest he become disqualified.

Perhaps we are speaking past each other on this topic.

I agree that in attaining salvation, the Bible says all our good works are good to us as filthy rags. But this verse cannot be used to dismiss the importance of good works all together.

You should be taking the Bible as a complete narrative. The complete narrative looks to a lifestyle (which takes work) that is consistent with the follower of Christ.

Let me give a recent example from my life. I used to be addicted to drugs before becoming a Christian. Last year I had major surgery. Due to complications I was given strong pain killers. Instantly my body became hooked again after being clean for years. However, after my medical need for the pain killers passed, I went off them cold turkey. I went through serious withdrawals, and it took work to stay disciplined and bring my body under my control, but I put the work in. Certainly my work was supported by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, but it was still work I had to do to maintain sobriety and thus a lifestyle submitted to my king rather than drugs, and conducive to my calling as a child of God.

Maybe we are working with different definitions of the term work, but I would consider work to be in effect, "effort it takes on my part." And I do not see in the Bible where I am allowed to ride God's grace absent contributed effort from my end.

I've seen plenty of believers brought to salvation who put no work in to resist sin because they are told the Christian life is grace without work. Thus, they succumb every weekend to alcohol's call, believing that either God's grace will cover it, or one day his grace will free them from it. But either way, they have been taught to not simply put the work in to set the bottle down, sit at home alone rather than go to the bar where they know they cannot resist, or take other steps of "work" to stop...

Maybe I am not eloquent enough to explain myself clearly...
God's grace has nothing to do with any work you can do. If there was any work you could do, then it would not be grace.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:45 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote: I don't see this as work to share with you. I know you are looking for someone to talk with about the gospel rather than reading something you are unfamiliar with.
I need to say that the first six days are days in which we work. I am not employed. And I have no problem sharing with you, whether it is little or no effort. Obviously I am doing something in sharing with you, so it can potentially be called work. If I call it work or not it is a joy to share with you. I didn't call it work, and with almost no effort I saw no need to do so. If I saw you on the Sabbath I would have no trouble sharing the gospel with you.

The gospel truth does not require (undue) work or effort. I am not being paid to share with you either. In regard to the change that can occur in your life when you accept or receive the gospel, it is a work of God not me.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Paidion
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by Paidion » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:02 pm

Jacob and Dizerner, the same Paul who wrote Romans 3 and 4, which, in my opinion, you misunderstand, and apply to a no works/cheap grace man-invented salvation from hell, also wrote Romans 2 (which, of course, you never quote). We are not saved primarily from hell; that is a side benefit. We are BEING saved primarily from SIN. The angel announced to Joseph that he should call the name of Mary's son "Jesus" because He would save his people from their SINS (Matt 1:21. He said nothing about his saving anyone from hell).

Salvation is a process. Total salvation from sin and perfection IS necessary! And God will never give up on us until we are completely sin free.

...I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)

Now let's consider Romans 2, and see if we can honestly affirm that our works have nothing to do with our salvation:

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, ..., for God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-10)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by dizerner » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:11 pm

Romans 2 was written about born again Gentile converts who did the very things the Jews did not, because of grace. But I'm puzzled at a "salvation from hell" since it seems in your view no one will end up there anyway. Now that's what I call a view from hell—one that hell won't exist someday is a view from the pits of hell.

bless!

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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:26 pm

Paidion wrote:Jacob and Dizerner, the same Paul who wrote Romans 3 and 4, which, in my opinion, you misunderstand, and apply to a no works/cheap grace man-invented salvation from hell, also wrote Romans 2 (which, of course, you never quote). We are not saved primarily from hell; that is a side benefit. We are BEING saved primarily from SIN. The angel announced to Joseph that he should call the name of Mary's son "Jesus" because He would save his people from their SINS (Matt 1:21. He said nothing about his saving anyone from hell).

Salvation is a process. Total salvation from sin and perfection IS necessary! And God will never give up on us until we are completely sin free.

...I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)

Now let's consider Romans 2, and see if we can honestly affirm that our works have nothing to do with our salvation:

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, ..., for God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-10)
There are no works you can do to avoid hell, because you have sinned and are therefore a sinner deserving death and hell.

But the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 3:23, 6:23.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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