God's grace and your obedience

Man, Sin, & Salvation
User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5013
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by Paidion » Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:50 pm

Dizerner wrote:But I'm puzzled at a "salvation from hell" since it seems in your view no one will end up there anyway.

I am not sure why you are puzzled. I do believe some people will experience hell, which I consider to be a condition of remediation. Thus it is true that no one will END up there.
For hell will not be the end. I don't know whether hell is a place or a state. It may be as the Orthodox Church teaches that some people will experience the afterlife as heaven and others will experience the same "place" or "condition" as hell. In C.S. Lewis's children's story, The Last Battle, the final book in the Chronicles of Narnia, the black dwarfs entered Aslan's country after death, along with all those who served Aslan (the Great Lion). But the dwarves thought they were still in a stable in Narnia. When they were offered sumptuous food, they thought they were being offered old, shrivelled turnips that had been given to the animals, and they threw it away in disgust. When they were offered choice wine, they thought they were being offered urine from the troughs behind the cows.

God's love for all mankind will be "tough love" for many. Hell will be uncomfortable or even painful, but God will continue to work with people until they submit to his authority. He may even send the "sons of God" for whom the creation is eagerly longing (Rom 8:19) to the people who will be in hell in order to influence them to submit to the authority of Christ. God will provide no more discomfort to anyone than is absolutely necessary. The "fire" of hell is God's way of burning out all the evil from people.

Jesus said that EVERYONE will be salted with fire (Mark 9:49). Both salt and fire are purifying agents.
Last edited by Paidion on Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5013
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by Paidion » Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:55 pm

John, you wrote:There are no works you can do to avoid hell, because you have sinned and are therefore a sinner deserving death and hell.
If that is the case, the how would you explain the passage I quoted?

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, ..., for God shows no partiality.
(Romans 2:6-10)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

User avatar
JacobMartinMertens
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm
Location: The United States of America; Washington State

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:57 pm

Paidion wrote:
John, you wrote:There are no works you can do to avoid hell, because you have sinned and are therefore a sinner deserving death and hell.
If that is the case, the how would you explain the passage I quoted?

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, ..., for God shows no partiality.
(Romans 2:6-10)
I don't see a problem here. We are talking about scripture. Romans 3 comes after Romans 2 which comes after Romans 1.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

User avatar
dizerner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by dizerner » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:24 pm

Paidion wrote:
John, you wrote:There are no works you can do to avoid hell, because you have sinned and are therefore a sinner deserving death and hell.
If that is the case, the how would you explain the passage I quoted?

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, ..., for God shows no partiality.
(Romans 2:6-10)
Doesn't Romans 2:6-10 sound like a perfect description of the Law? Obey and live, disobey and die?
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

User avatar
dizerner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by dizerner » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:26 pm

Paidion wrote:
Dizerner wrote:But I'm puzzled at a "salvation from hell" since it seems in your view no one will end up there anyway.

I am not sure why you are puzzled. I do believe some people will experience hell, which I consider to be a condition of remediation. Thus it is true that no one will END up there.
For hell will not be the end. I don't know whether hell is a place or a state. It may be as the Orthodox Church teaches that some people will experience the afterlife as heaven and others will experience the same "place" or "condition" as hell. In C.S. Lewis's children's story, The Last Battle, the final book in the Chronicles of Narnia, the black dwarfs entered Aslan's country after death, along with all those who served Aslan (the Great Lion). But the dwarves thought they were still in a stable in Narnia. When they were offered sumptuous food, they thought they were being offered old, shrivelled turnips that had been given to the animals, and they threw it away in disgust. When they were offered choice wine, they thought they were being offered urine from the troughs behind the cows.

God's love for all mankind will be "tough love" for many. Hell will be uncomfortable or even painful, but God will continue to work with people until they submit to his authority. He may even send the "sons of God" for whom the creation is eagerly longing (Rom 8:19) to the people who will be in hell in order to influence them to submit to the authority of Christ. God will provide no more discomfort to anyone than is absolutely necessary. The "fire" of hell is God's way of burning out all the evil from people.

Jesus said that EVERYONE will be salted with fire (Mark 9:49). Both salt and fire are purifying agents.
I wish it were true. But by not believing in eternal hell I think one might end up in hell, for one is not then trusting the depth of the work of Christ completely.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

User avatar
jeremiah
Posts: 317
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:58 pm
Location: New Braunfels, Texas

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jeremiah » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:17 pm

Dizerner wrote:I wish it were true. But by not believing in eternal hell I think one might end up in hell, for one is not then trusting the depth of the work of Christ completely.
Dizerner, restorationism presents hell as where those who don't yet, learn to trust in the depth of the work of Christ completely.

grace and peace brother.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

User avatar
dizerner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by dizerner » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:48 pm

jeremiah wrote:
Dizerner wrote:I wish it were true. But by not believing in eternal hell I think one might end up in hell, for one is not then trusting the depth of the work of Christ completely.
Dizerner, restorationism presents hell as where those who don't yet, learn to trust in the depth of the work of Christ completely.

grace and peace brother.
Right. The make-up homework hell. I just don't see that kind of a description in the Word until later ideas of purgatory. I want it too badly too be true to trust myself, and that also makes me trust that uneasy and wrong feeling I get about these attacks on the classic doctrine of hell. I have no desire whatsoever to cling to the "orthodox" view, but I did dedicate my entire life to following Scripture. The hell apologists have failed to convince me on all fronts, although I can't help but think their heart may be trying to be in the right place, but that right place for me is just putting God first. There is absolutely no room in Scripture for this, it is all based in "I just don't think God could be like that and I need to defend his character." That's not even a right starting point for me, so why would I trust the conclusions. All of my study and all of my experiences with the Lord have constantly affirmed the orthodox understanding of hell. I can't help but see it as the enemy making inroads. Anyway if you're interested here's my Scriptural support (none of which is based in aionios, although in my opinion they greatly mishandle that word) followed by my journey contemplating the logical implications:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.p ... ost7611102
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.p ... ost7609119
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

User avatar
jaydam
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jaydam » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:31 am

dizerner wrote:...classic doctrine of hell... cling to the "orthodox" view
I am taking an interesting class on the evolution of theology, and it has shown just how unclassic the eternal doctrine of hell is. It certainly has been around since the beginning of doctrine, but so has understanding of universalism.

As well, "orthodox" typically refers to the opinions that were made popular by the greatest might, not always the greatest right. I find myself holding little loyalty to orthodoxy. I might arrive to many of the same conclusions as orthodoxy, but it is from loyalty to the Bible, not to the councils who defined what must be believed or else.

Does your regenerated spirit as a Christian sit at ease with the idea of people burning for eternity for a blip of sin on the radar of the eternal timeline?

I'll tell you, my unregenerate spirit had no problem with the idea of people burning for eternity, because I hated them. But in my regeneration, as I forgave those who have killed my friends, even tried to kill me, with a forgiveness that could only come from the love of God, I could not fathom that he would give me such love yet not hold it himself.

I'm not saying I can absolutely trust myself not to be wrong, but I do place a degree of trust in the emotions that have accompanied the regeneration of my heart. Tested with scripture, I believe my emotions of regeneration are proven trustworthy, that God will not torment eternally those who happened to be as blind as I was, only I was lucky enough to turn when I was 31, while the other died at 30 before they had the same chance of time to repent.

Absent my belief in eternal torment, I am left with annihilationism and universalism. Of which, both sit well with my regenerated soul and the testimony of scripture. However, I stand as a hopeful universalist - allowing room for annihilation.

Why close the door to the love of God to effect everyone? Either by bringing them all to him, or putting the suffering out of their misery?

User avatar
dizerner
Posts: 1221
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by dizerner » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:11 am

jaydam wrote:
dizerner wrote:...classic doctrine of hell... cling to the "orthodox" view
I am taking an interesting class on the evolution of theology, and it has shown just how unclassic the eternal doctrine of hell is. It certainly has been around since the beginning of doctrine, but so has understanding of universalism.

As well, "orthodox" typically refers to the opinions that were made popular by the greatest might, not always the greatest right. I find myself holding little loyalty to orthodoxy. I might arrive to many of the same conclusions as orthodoxy, but it is from loyalty to the Bible, not to the councils who defined what must be believed or else.

Does your regenerated spirit as a Christian sit at ease with the idea of people burning for eternity for a blip of sin on the radar of the eternal timeline?

I'll tell you, my unregenerate spirit had no problem with the idea of people burning for eternity, because I hated them. But in my regeneration, as I forgave those who have killed my friends, even tried to kill me, with a forgiveness that could only come from the love of God, I could not fathom that he would give me such love yet not hold it himself.

I'm not saying I can absolutely trust myself not to be wrong, but I do place a degree of trust in the emotions that have accompanied the regeneration of my heart. Tested with scripture, I believe my emotions of regeneration are proven trustworthy, that God will not torment eternally those who happened to be as blind as I was, only I was lucky enough to turn when I was 31, while the other died at 30 before they had the same chance of time to repent.

Absent my belief in eternal torment, I am left with annihilationism and universalism. Of which, both sit well with my regenerated soul and the testimony of scripture. However, I stand as a hopeful universalist - allowing room for annihilation.

Why close the door to the love of God to effect everyone? Either by bringing them all to him, or putting the suffering out of their misery?
You say you love the Bible, but I can't believe that. I've spent all my life in the Bible, and it clearly teaches the eternal consequences of our life choices. This puts us at severe odds with each other.

If you were to ask me—I don't think a doctrine is noble just because it is hard to swallow. I do think it is submission to swallow a hard doctrine, but that's not the same thing of course. Like some Calvinists, they seem to think simply because it's a difficult doctrine it's godly to believe it. I wouldn't presume that, but I also wouldn't play games with myself.

My regenerated spirit does sit at ease with this doctrine. I accepted it from the outset. The problem of the seeming evil or injustice in the world has attacked my mind many times. I would readily admit it's so difficult it's a paradox I can only take on faith.

I won't say the doctrine hasn't unsettled me—even scared me. But in my heart, I knew the price Christ paid was beyond measure, and I knew God was right to send a sinner, someone like me, to an eternal hell because that is what was right to his holiness. And I count that as a fundamental sign of regeneration—knowing that your birth, your new birth, required the ultimate birthing pains from Christ.

If someone doesn't have that sense of just how evil and sinful their sin is in the sight of an infinitely holy God, or just how deep and painful and sorrowful the travail and passion of our Lord Jesus Christ was for their godless and wicked soul—I would have to think they've surrounded themselves perhaps with religious ideas and Bible verses, but they've never met the Person of God—they've never met the Savior, and wept at the foot of his cross. I'd encourage that person to not assume they are right with God because they know a lot of Bible verses or doctrines, but make sure they live out what the Word of God contains, until they meet the real and living Person that is written about in there.

Thanks for sharing your sincere concerns and thoughts with me. I did likewise and I hope you don't take offense at that.

YHWH have mercy.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

User avatar
jaydam
Posts: 343
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:29 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jaydam » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:31 am

dizerner wrote:You say you love the Bible, but I can't believe that. I've spent all my life in the Bible, and it clearly teaches the eternal consequences of our life choices. This puts us at severe odds with each other.

If you were to ask me—I don't think a doctrine is noble just because it is hard to swallow. I do think it is submission to swallow a hard doctrine, but that's not the same thing of course. Like some Calvinists, they seem to think simply because it's a difficult doctrine it's godly to believe it. I wouldn't presume that, but I also wouldn't play games with myself.

My regenerated spirit does sit at ease with this doctrine. I accepted it from the outset. The problem of the seeming evil or injustice in the world has attacked my mind many times. I would readily admit it's so difficult it's a paradox I can only take on faith.

I won't say the doctrine hasn't unsettled me—even scared me. But in my heart, I knew the price Christ paid was beyond measure, and I knew God was right to send a sinner, someone like me, to an eternal hell because that is what was right to his holiness. And I count that as a fundamental sign of regeneration—knowing that your birth, your new birth, required the ultimate birthing pains from Christ.

If someone doesn't have that sense of just how evil and sinful their sin is in the sight of an infinitely holy God, or just how deep and painful and sorrowful the travail and passion of our Lord Jesus Christ was for their godless and wicked soul—I would have to think they've surrounded themselves perhaps with religious ideas and Bible verses, but they've never met the Person of God—they've never met the Savior, and wept at the foot of his cross. I'd encourage that person to not assume they are right with God because they know a lot of Bible verses or doctrines, but make sure they live out what the Word of God contains, until they meet the real and living Person that is written about in there.

Thanks for sharing your sincere concerns and thoughts with me. I did likewise and I hope you don't take offense at that.

YHWH have mercy.
I do not have a problem with swallowing tough doctrine. However, when my spirit feels something, and it concurs with scripture, then I feel that is a big deal. Especially when my spirit did not feel such things before regeneration.

I have yet to find a doctrine I have truly had to work hard to swallow in my regenerated state.

I came to faith specifically because of a real and audible encounter with God, so I, probably to more of a degree than many, have had a uniquely real and personal encounter with the person of God.

Its probably not useful to hash out the verses on hell here since they have been gone over time and again. That is why I considered the additional aspect of my spirit concurring with the already beaten to death verses on both sides.

More to a possible topic of discussion, you look to the soteriological danger of not firmly believing in eternal torment. I wonder where you would get the idea that salvation rests on a correct view of hell?

Don't let me put words in your mouth, but could it be because you feel one would not hold the proper "respect" for sin if one does not affirm the proper punishment? That would be the gist I get from your posts.

If that is the case, then were do you get that we must understand God's revulsion of sin correctly in order to be saved? Is it not enough to understand my sin makes me less than I should be, resulting in lost relationship and function, and God has made a way to restore it?

As long as one understands sin to cause separation from God, is there a further degree of "respect" for the gravity of sin that you must believe to be saved?

Post Reply

Return to “Anthropology, Hamartiology, Soteriology”