God's grace and your obedience

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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jeremiah
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jeremiah » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:10 pm

There is absolutely no room in Scripture for this,
This is potentially quite a lazy assertion. 'Classic' view of hell? Infernalism is hardly called the classical view. You've never read any early church fathers teaching directly on or alluding to their understanding of the apokatastasis? Jesus takes dead sinners and makes them alive by grace—no room in scripture, really?

A caricature like make up homework couldn't be further from the truth, on that we agree at least. My study and experience have been quite opposite yours on this issue.

grace and peace to you brother.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Paidion
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by Paidion » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:49 pm

Some Scriptures Concerning the Reconciliation of All Things to God

John 12:32 … I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.

When Jesus was died on the cross, He began to draw people to Himself. With the words to John, “Behold your mother”, and to Mary, “Behold your son”, He began to establish the Family of God. This continued after His resurrection when there were 120 in that Family. It further developed on that special Pentecost, where many were added to the Family daily. But when were ALL drawn to Him? In our day, it still hasn't happened. But it will happen some day when ALL come under the authority of Christ.

Colossians 1:19,20
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.


ALL THINGS! Surely that includes ALL PEOPLE!

Ephesians 1:9,10
For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.


Romans 5:18
Then as one man’s trespass [Adam’s] led to condemnation for ALL people, so one man’s act of righteousness [Christ’s] leads to acquittal and life for ALL people.
[See RSV, NRSV, ESV, NIV]

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Some say, “Yes, every knee shall bow when it has been struck from behind with a 2X4”. A forced bowing is possible. But God doesn't seem to work in the world through force, but through kindness and persuasion. We read, “The kindness of the Lord is meant to lead us to repentance.” [Romans 2:4] In any case, " every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Surely confession of Christ as Lord cannot be forced.

Who are those under the earth who will bow to Jesus? Does it refer to those who will be in Gehenna (Hell)?

I Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.


God is the Saviour in a special way of those who now believe. They are being saved from sin now, and so are being made righteous, and will not have to undergo Gehenna. That's what's special about their salvation. However, the others are not being saved now and will have to be corrected in Gehenna. But they too will sooner or later willingly believe and submit to Christ. For He is the Savior of ALL people!

Revelation 5:12-13
And I heard every created being in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages.


Surely this kind of praise is voluntary and could not be forced. Notice that even those under the earth will praise God and the Lamb. Who are those UNDER the earth? Those who will be in the Lake of Fire? All demons? Even Satan himself?

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned ALL people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon ALL.

Philippians 3:20,21
But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.


Some will object to some of these passages, stating that “all” does not always mean “all” in the Bible. That is true. But from that we cannot conclude that “all” doesn’t mean “all” in this passage.

When “all” is used for emphasis it is plain. For example:

Matthew 8:34 And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw him, they begged him to leave their neighborhood.

We talk this way today. George asks, Who was at the fair? Jim replies, Everybody was there!”. George doesn’t conclude that everyone in the world was at the fair. It’s an extreme exaggeration for emphasis. BUT there is no indication that this kind of thing is being done in the reconciliation scriptures.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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jaydam
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jaydam » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:40 pm

Something interesting I came across from the book of Wisdom 11:26-12:2:
26 But you spare all things, because they are yours, O Lord and lover of souls,

1 for your imperishable spirit is in all things!

2 Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little,
warn them, and remind them of the sins they are committing,
that they may abandon their wickedness and believe in you, O Lord!
This is a Jewish writing dated about 100 years before Christ, and shows that a universalist view was even among the Jews at least back that far.

I post this to show that the threads of universalism are just as traditional as ET.

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:45 pm

I am definitely not a universalist. If I understand correctly, a universalist believes either that all people are saved or that Jesus died for all people whether they realize or recognize it or not.

In fact, those who believe in God and Jesus have salvation in His blood. They can indeed say Jesus died for them.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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jaydam
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jaydam » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:53 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:I am definitely not a universalist. If I understand correctly, a universalist believes either that all people are saved or that Jesus died for all people whether they realize or recognize it or not.

In fact, those who believe in God and Jesus have salvation in His blood. They can indeed say Jesus died for them.
I look to universalism as the understanding that those who are saved will not fall under judgment. Those who are not saved will go through judgement which will perfectly rehabilitate them and bring them into submission.

God is likened to a father. Does a father punish just for the sake of punishing? No. Punishment is designed to correct the one being punished, and bring about an end goal of improvement of the one being punished. We would understand a human who inflicts punishment for punishments sake, without an expectation of reaching resolution, to be a sadist.

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:56 pm

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I am definitely not a universalist. If I understand correctly, a universalist believes either that all people are saved or that Jesus died for all people whether they realize or recognize it or not.

In fact, those who believe in God and Jesus have salvation in His blood. They can indeed say Jesus died for them.
I look to universalism as the understanding that those who are saved will not fall under judgment. Those who are not saved will go through judgement which will perfectly rehabilitate them and bring them into submission.

God is likened to a father. Does a father punish just for the sake of punishing? No. Punishment is designed to correct the one being punished, and bring about an end goal of improvement of the one being punished. We would understand a human who inflicts punishment for punishments sake, without an expectation of reaching resolution, to be a sadist.
Discipline is not sadistic at all.

Hebrews 12:7 NASB - 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

If someone who is not saved is brought into submission, are they now saved? How do you see it? That is, what are you saying?
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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jaydam
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jaydam » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:01 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:
jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I am definitely not a universalist. If I understand correctly, a universalist believes either that all people are saved or that Jesus died for all people whether they realize or recognize it or not.

In fact, those who believe in God and Jesus have salvation in His blood. They can indeed say Jesus died for them.
I look to universalism as the understanding that those who are saved will not fall under judgment. Those who are not saved will go through judgement which will perfectly rehabilitate them and bring them into submission.

God is likened to a father. Does a father punish just for the sake of punishing? No. Punishment is designed to correct the one being punished, and bring about an end goal of improvement of the one being punished. We would understand a human who inflicts punishment for punishments sake, without an expectation of reaching resolution, to be a sadist.
Discipline is not sadistic at all.

Hebrews 12:7 NASB - 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

If someone who is not saved is brought into submission, are they now saved? How do you see it? That is, what are you saying?
Discipline definition: "Training expected to produce moral improvement"

That's right out of the dictionary. What discipline is there in eternal torment?

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:03 pm

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:
jaydam wrote:
I look to universalism as the understanding that those who are saved will not fall under judgment. Those who are not saved will go through judgement which will perfectly rehabilitate them and bring them into submission.

God is likened to a father. Does a father punish just for the sake of punishing? No. Punishment is designed to correct the one being punished, and bring about an end goal of improvement of the one being punished. We would understand a human who inflicts punishment for punishments sake, without an expectation of reaching resolution, to be a sadist.
Discipline is not sadistic at all.

Hebrews 12:7 NASB - 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

If someone who is not saved is brought into submission, are they now saved? How do you see it? That is, what are you saying?
Discipline definition: "Training expected to produce moral improvement"

That's right out of the dictionary. What discipline is there in eternal torment?
Is eternal torment in the Bible? Everlasting punishment is different from the discipline or chastisement from father to son. But having improvement by way of instruction does not mean no one is ever rightly punished for what they have done.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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jaydam
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by jaydam » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:08 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:s eternal torment in the Bible? Everlasting punishment is different from the discipline or chastisement from father to son. But having improvement by way of instruction does not mean no one is ever rightly punished for what they have done.
No, eternal torment is not in the Bible, at least not in a sure manner.

Whether it is father and son or creator and creation, punishment, discipline, or whatever else you want to call it is meaningless if it has no attainable goal in mind.

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's grace and your obedience

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:12 pm

jaydam wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:s eternal torment in the Bible? Everlasting punishment is different from the discipline or chastisement from father to son. But having improvement by way of instruction does not mean no one is ever rightly punished for what they have done.
No, eternal torment is not in the Bible, at least not in a sure manner.

Whether it is father and son or creator and creation, punishment, discipline, or whatever else you want to call it is meaningless if it has no attainable goal in mind.
Here is where it says eternal punishment.

Matthew 25:46 NASB - 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The Hebrew word translated as hell is sheol. In the Greek there are three different words translated as hell, including hades which ends up in the lake of fire.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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