Hold to repentance

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njd83
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Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:15 pm

I was thinking about a few verses and doing some word study and came up with this insight, and thinking how much is held underneath the English versions.

The NASB puts it this way.
“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come*[χωρέω] to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9, NASB95)
A slight difference in the word "come to"* which actually means "hold [to] or contain"(χωρέω). The same greek Lemma is used in: Matt 15:17, 19:11,12, Mark 2:2, John 2:6, 8:37, 21:25, 2 Cor 7:2, 2 Peter 3:9.
“But He said to them, “Not all men can accept*[χωρέω] this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept*[χωρέω] this, let him accept*[χωρέω] it.”” (Matthew 19:11–12, NASB95)

“And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room*[χωρέω], not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.” (Mark 2:2, NASB95)

“Now there were six stone waterpots set there for the Jewish custom of purification, containing*[χωρέω] twenty or thirty gallons each.” (John 2:6, NASB95)

““I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place*[χωρέω] in you.” (John 8:37, NASB95)

“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain*[χωρέω] the books that would be written.” (John 21:25, NASB95)

“Make room*[χωρέω] for us in your hearts; we wronged no one, we corrupted no one, we took advantage of no one.” (2 Corinthians 7:2, NASB95)
A more literal rendering of 2 Peter 3:9 might be:
“The Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to [hold to]*[χωρέω] repentance,” (2 Peter 3:9)
The reason its important to me is due to the false doctrine/theology in the world. And because it affirms the Shepherd of Hermas' teaching about the true theology/doctrine the early church taught about repentance/reformation/change-of-mind. Also, it lines up with that great prophet, John the Baptist, when he said "Bear fruit in keeping with repentance", although that is mistranslated as well =), it really means in greek "Bear fruit worthy of repentance". Regardless, its not just "coming to repentance" but holding to it, and bearing good fruit, as the Shepherd describes very well, the "Shepherd" of that book being the so-named "angel of repentance", he would know.

Aside: In Matthew 19:11-12, "accept" which is the greek word "hold to contain", is not the same word used elsewhere as "accept", FYI. Accept/Acceptable is found in 34 verses in the English NASB.

There are four main greek words translated "accept[able]" into the English in the NASB:
  • χωρέω - Hold to contain, Matt 19:11-12
    δέχομαι (and παραδέχομαι ) - accept, Mark 4:20
    λαμβανω - receive, Rom 14:1, [also receive Mark 4:16]
    εὐάρεστος - acceptable, pleasing, Rom 12:1-2, [also εὐάρεστος: 2 Cor 5:9 Eph 5:10, Phil 4:18]
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:28 pm

Thank you for sharing with us your investigation of the word χωρεω, njd. It prompted me to investigate it as well. I think its basic meaning is "to leave space for" or "to make room for." I think that meaning would fit ALL of the passages you quoted that contain the word.
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:34 am

Hey thanks for the reply Paidion.

Now I don't know much about this next part, greek verb forms. But I will take a whirl at it.

The verb "Hold to" χωρέω is aorist/active/infinitive.

aorist - summary occurance, no progress
active - the subject is doing the action, its not being done to them
infinitive - "-ing"

so as i teach myself this, this seems to be what comes up?:

"but for all to be actively holding to repentance"

The thing about this verse, is that it seems to be talking to believers: "patient toward you", as in those reading Peters letter and hoping for salvation (BTW, to me salvation is freedom/victory from sins. that's how I define it. "and He will save His people from their sins". but not religious victory from sins, but spiritual beautiful loving righteousness of God the father dwelling in and through a person is what I would call the TRUE salvation of Jesus)

Whereas, the other similar verse from Paul:

“who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4, NASB95)

Obviously: God desiring the whole world to repent and be saved and come to a spiritual knowledge of the Father, John 17:3.

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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:27 pm

It is true that the aorist tense depicts a completed action. The infinitive mode (for some reason now referred to as "mood") doesn't necessarily imply that a verb end in "ing." For example "to eat" is an infinitive.

In any case, I don't think the tense and mode affect the basic meaning of the Greek word.
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:02 pm

But how would the verse differ in meaning if a present, or future, or imperfect tense was used?

"but wishing all to be continually in the present holding to repentance" present
"but wish all to hold to repentance in the future" future
"but wishing all the have held to repentance and progressing in it" imperfect

"but wishing all holding to repentance" aorist?

seems both present and aorist, which is why i guess its hard to translate these tenses into the english

its just interesting to me how specific the writers were writing and how they meant certain specific things by the things they were saying, that, which, is not always conveyed exactly or even closely! by the translation. either verse tenses or word meanings.

And I'm noticing the lexicons themselves seem to have a bias and sometimes you need a wing-nut theologian just to get a helpful insight into what the word really meant originally! I'm just kidding... =)

But I had to did into the TDNT just to get the original meaning of "justification" meaning "to make righteous"

Or hearsay and here at NP and you Paidion to learn about Aion and Aionios =). And also a summary about Aion by Heleen M. Keizer

These evangelical circles are so afraid of God restoring souls from Hades. And there's historical precedent for such fears (father Origen expressed fears of "flood of evils resulting from sin"). But its so obvious that "eternal life" and "eternal fire" is not eternal because all are resurrected from Hades, Death and Abyss and stand before God, books are opened. And it misrepresents God. Now the Lake of Fire might as well be eternal in the everlasting sense, ending in annihilation. I don't think someone comes out of the lake of fire, do you? it seems final. Hades definitely seems like a temporary place of punishment for sin, and the Sherpherd talks about that:
95.1 .....“How,” I said, “sir, did they become worse, having come to know God?” “The one who does not know,” he said, “God and acts wickedly(poneros) incurs some punishment(kolaysis) for his wickednesses, but the one who has come to know God ought to do wickedness no longer but ought to do good.

2 Therefore if the one who ought to do good does wickedness, does he not seem to do more wickedness than the one who does not know God? For this reason the ones who do not know God and who do wickedness are condemned to death, but those who know God and who have seen his mighty power and do wickedness, they will be punished(kolazo) doubly and will die [into the age].  Therefore in this way the church of God will be purified.

3 But like you saw the stones taken away from the tower and handed over to the wicked spirits and from there were thrown out, and there will be one body of those who are cleansed, just as the tower also became as being made out of one stone, after it was purified. In this way the church of God will also be after it is purified and the wicked ones and hypocrites and slanderers and double-souled ones and doers of various wickednesses are thrown out.

4 After these are thrown out the church of God will be one body, one wisdom, one understanding, one faith, one love; and then the Son of God will rejoice greatly and will be made glad in them, having received back his pure people.” -Shepherd Of Hermas Parable 9 section
"into the age" is a common term used in the NT to refer to the punishment going on in Hades while Jesus reigns on the earth during the 1000 year Reign, 7th age. Although you can't usually see the literal translation unless you look at the center column references to literal renderings.

Quick digression about another misunderstanding in Hebrews I read, maybe just me though:
“any one who did set at nought a law of Moses, apart from mercies, by two or three witnesses, doth die,” (Hebrews 10:28, YLT)
"Apart from mercies", implies there are mercies available for someone to receive, but that the standard is death for many offences in the OT. Like David sought mercy and obtained it. And others. They weren't put to death, but the standard of the law required death.

In the same way with the Virgin Mary:

"Joseph being a just man, and not willing to make her an example, desired to put her away privately"

Since being Just includes mercy and misphat or good discerning judgment.

I just thought it interesting how the Young's Literal helps me see more clearly what was actually being said in the greek by the apostles. =(
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:21 pm

Hi njd, you" wrote:its just interesting to me how specific the writers were writing and how they meant certain specific things by the things they were saying, that, which, is not always conveyed exactly or even closely! by the translation. either verse tenses or word meanings.
Yes, I agree that that is often the case. But there are usually some translations that are closer.
And I'm noticing the lexicons themselves seem to have a bias and sometimes you need a wing-nut theologian just to get a helpful insight into what the word really meant originally! I'm just kidding... =)
You are right. I think lexicons have ten or twenty "meanings" simply because some of these "meanings" make sense in the context, and so they presume the word has a "semantic range." Some words do, but others that are presumed so, do not.
But I had to did into the TDNT just to get the original meaning of "justification" meaning "to make righteous"
Yes, I think that both occurrences of "δικαιωσις" refers to being made righteous. But interestingly enough, a similar noun "δικαιοσυνη" is consistently translated as "righteousness" in virtually all translations. The verbal form is "δικαιοω" which is usually translated as "justify." But it, too, often means "to make righteous." Not always. It actually does mean "justify" in some cases. Here are a couple of examples:

Matthew 12:37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Luke 10:29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

These evangelical circles are so afraid of God restoring souls from Hades. And there's historical precedent for such fears (father Origen expressed fears of "flood of evils resulting from sin"). But its so obvious that "eternal life" and "eternal fire" is not eternal because all are resurrected from Hades, Death and Abyss and stand before God, books are opened. And it misrepresents God. Now the Lake of Fire might as well be eternal in the everlasting sense, ending in annihilation. I don't think someone comes out of the lake of fire, do you? it seems final. Hades definitely seems like a temporary place of punishment for sin, and the Sherpherd talks about that...
In earlier times, the Greeks used the word "hades" (ἁδης) to refer to the god of the lower regions, also called "Pluto." Then it came to mean the lower regions themselves and was thought to be a place to which everyone went after death. It was imported even into Jewish thought. But in Jesus' day, the word came to simply mean "the grave" (or "the tomb"). However, Jesus parable of Dives and Lazarus uses the Jewish thinking of the day that it was a place to which everyone went after death. It was not unusual for Jesus to employ Jewish beliefs to make a point. His point in the parable was that even if a person could come back from the dead and told them about the suffering in hades, they still wouldn't repent.

Most modern versions of the Bible do not translate the word, but transliterate it as "hades."

Other than Luke 16, it makes sense to translate every other instance of the word as "the grave" or "death."

Matthew 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to the grave ; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Matthew 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates the grave shall not prevail against it.


Right now death and the grave prevail. Everyone dies. But death and the grave will not always prevail against Christ's church. The members of Christ's church will be raised to life—never to die again. Christ has conquered death.

Luke 10:15 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to the grave.

Acts 2:27 For You will not leave my being in the grave, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31 "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His being was not left in the grave, nor did His flesh see corruption.

1 Corinthians 15:55 "O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"

Revelation 1:18 "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of the grave and of Death.
Revelation 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and the grave followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and the grave delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Now the Lake of Fire might as well be eternal in the everlasting sense, ending in annihilation. I don't think someone comes out of the lake of fire, do you? it seems final.
Yes, I think EVERYONE will eventually come out of the Lake of Fire. If the vast majority of mankind experience annihilation, then God seems to have lost in his desire that "all come to repentance." ( or "make room for repentance" 2 Peter 3:9)

Here is what Origen )A.D. 185-254) taught concerning the reconciliation of all beings to God—even Satan.
When it is said that "the last enemy" shall be destroyed, it is not to be understood as meaning that his substance, which is God's creation, perishes, but that his purpose and hostile will perishes; for this does not come from God but from himself. Therefore his destruction means not his ceasing to exist, but ceasing to be an enemy and ceasing to be death. Nothing is impossible to omnipotence; there is nothing that cannot be healed by its Maker.
—De Principiis III. vi.5

The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who once were enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached... —De Principiis III.vi.6

...God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician...the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health... —De Principiis II.x.6
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:22 am

Your remedial view is fine by me, if you choose to have that, not that it matters what I think...

But that's a serious error to think Hades is the grave/death alone. The Shepherd of Hermas clearly says as well as the bible that those who did wicked things will be punished. So does the Apocalypse of Peter. All books approved by the early church as scripture. In the Apocalypse of Peter is it very gruesome what the punishments are for the wicked. (and remember the church fathers quoted it as being scripture) Hanging from their tongue for blasphemers. Thrown into a pit of venomous snakes for murderers. and so on. and this goes on and on for how much wickedness as was done, expiating 2 or 3 fold it says. Jesus offered a pardon, or course we know that. upon repentance one doesn't have to suffer the horror of Hades, and further the Lake of Fire if a person is still denying God's goodness and justice after all that.

I mean if you want to spiritualize "where the worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched" then you have to spiritualize the equal and opposite cause of it, the people murdering and raping and aborting their babies and committing adultery, and whatever else. They really didn't do all that in the real world, it wasn't really that bad, and so on. that's bullhonkey paidion. God has to punish sin, or he would be unjust. Sure it "could" be remedial. But Jesus also said "God is able to "destroy" the soul in Gehenna". You may believe the soul is just the body, but that just aint so. God can destroy the soul of a person if he/she refuses to acknowledge the justice and goodness and righteousness of God. Rebellion will not last forever. Remedially, or destructionally. [edit: or he could leave the rebels in the fire eternally, as many believe] I don't see how one can synthesize all of the scriptures, including outside approved scripture texts, any other way. Any other interpretation I find people compromising in theology or original meaning or disallowing a text.

I mean about the "soul" you did not show me how the soul is "just the body/flesh".

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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:51 pm

I have never indicated that "the soul" is tantamount to "the body."

In Greek thought and philosophy, man has an invisible "soul" that inhabits a visible "body." This view has been imported into Christianity rather early.

In the Hebrew Old Testament, "nephesh" (usually translated as "soul" in the AV, Authorized Version, or King James Version) actually means "being" as in "human being." For example:

(Genesis 2:7 AV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]

How could man become a soul (in the sense that the Greeks understood it). Man wouldn't BECOME a soul in that sense; rather, in the Greek sense, the body that God created, would RECEIVE a soul implanted into it. But that is not what the text says. Again it says that the man (that is the inanimate body) BECAME a nephesh. The New King James Version translates the word as it ought to be translated:

(Genesis 2:7 NKJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

That "nephesh" ought to be translated as "being" is also supported in the following passage:

Genesis 9:10 "and with every living nephesh that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth.
If "nephesh" were translated as "soul," then birds and beasts are souls, or have souls. Rather birds and beasts are living beings. Even the AV translates the word as "creature" rather than "soul" in this verse.

Genesis 34:8 But Hamor spoke with them, saying, "The nephesh of my son Shechem longs for your daughter. Please give her to him as a wife.

What is the "nephesh" of Shechem that longed for Jacob's daughter? Doubtless it was his being, his very being.

And here's an interesting one. Have you ever heard of a dead soul? Here are three verses that speak of a dead nephesh:

Leviticus 21:11 ‘nor shall he go near any dead nephesh, nor defile himself for his father or his mother;
Numbers 6:6 ‘All the days that he separates himself to the LORD he shall not go near a dead nephesh.
Numbers 19:11 ‘He who touches the dead nephesh of anyone shall be unclean seven days.


Well, the Greek philosophical concept of a "soul" being a immaterial part of a human being won't fit these verses, since a "soul" presumably cannot die. So the King James, and consequently the New King James translates "nephesh" in these verses as "body."
But of course, you do not believe that the soul could be merely the body, do you? Well, neither did Moses when he wrote these verses. A "soul" in Greek thought cannot die. But a being can die, and if a being dies, you have a dead being.

In the New Testament, the word that the AV often translates as "soul" is "ψυχη" ("psuchā" or as others transliterate it "psyche"). This Greek word means "self." Consider the following:

Luke 12:16-19 NKJV Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: "The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry."’

In the Greek understanding of "soul" being the real person separate from the body, than how could this man talk to his soul? Who was doing the talking, if not the soul of the man?

But when we understand that, in the New Testament, "ψυχη" means "self" the problem disappears. The man was talking to himself.

Finally, what did Jesus mean by the following?

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the self. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both self and body in hell (Gehenna).

People may kill you, but they cannot destroy your self. For Jesus will raise you to life again, and your self will exist once more. Thus you need not fear such killers.

However, in Gehenna, God can destroy the body as well as the old, sinful self, and allow the new self to arise (after correction) that is committed to Him. If you find this explanation far-fetched, please consider the following.

In this (God's salvation) you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:6,7 ESV)

We all know that gold cannot perish or be destroyed by going through the fire. However, the original form of gold, before being refined, IS destroyed in the refining process, and the pure gold comes forth! That is how the old self is destroyed by God's refining process in Gehenna, and the new pure self emerges!
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:05 pm

(Genesis 2:7 AV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]

How could man become a soul (in the sense that the Greeks understood it). Man wouldn't BECOME a soul in that sense;
What's wrong with a dead biological man, Adam, laying on the ground with no life in him as of yet, then becoming a living soul when the spirit of God comes into him? In other words, the very act of God's spirit coming into the Adam fleshly body created a living soul, betwixt the two, Spirit and Body. Is there something essentially wrong with that idea?
....there are three things out of which, as I have shown, the complete man is composed—flesh, soul, and spirit. One of these does indeed preserve and fashion [the man]—this is the spirit; while as to another it is united and formed—that is the flesh; then [comes] that which is between these two—that is the soul, which sometimes indeed, when it follows the spirit, is raised up by it, but sometimes it sympathizes with the flesh, and falls into carnal lusts....
-Irenaeus - Against Heresies - book 5 chapter 9
We recognise two varieties of spirit, one of which is called the soul (ψυχή), but the other is greater than the soul, an image and likeness of God:
-Tatian - Address to the Greeks, chapter 7

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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by jeremiah » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:59 pm

Hello NJD,
What's wrong with a dead biological man, Adam, laying on the ground with no life in him as of yet, then becoming a living soul when the spirit of God comes into him? In other words, the very act of God's spirit coming into the Adam fleshly body created a living soul, betwixt the two, Spirit and Body. Is there something essentially wrong with that idea?
I think so. Where are you getting Adam's "Spirit" as you say? It says God breathed into him the breath of life. What do you mean by spirit? If you mean something within us that actually is the real us apart from our body, how are you getting this from the "breath(or spirit) of life?
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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