Hold to repentance

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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Paidion
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:31 pm

Also, it says that Adam BECAME a living soul. It doesn't say that Adam RECEIVED a soul. Again, the idea of a soul that inhabits a body is a Greek philosophical idea that was imported into Christendom. The Greek thought was that the "soul" is immortal, so that when the body dies, the immortal soul goes to inhabit a fetus or a baby somewhere (if it was good in the previous incarnation). If it was bad, it would have to inhabit an animal in its re-incarnation.

The Christian concept is that consciousness (or the mind) is one aspect of the body—specifically the brain—that without the brain and the body, it ceases to exist.

In the Old Testament, the word translated as "soul" was "nephesh." That word meant "being" as in "God breathed into the body He had created out of earth, and it became a living being. You don't HAVE a soul; you ARE a soul. Each of us is a "soul." Each of us is a being.

In the New Testament the word translated as "soul" (ψυχη, psyche) meant "self." Each of us is a "soul." Each of us is a self.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:14 am

I disagree I believe when a saint dies they go to heaven, their soul does. Or the sinner when he dies his soul goes to hades. the body decays in the earth until resurrection.

The body is not fleshily resurrected until the first or second resurrection.

Where do you guys get that flesh goes to heaven or hades when they die?

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njd83
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:31 am

8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

Wind, blows, and spirit all have the same root

God breathed into man the breath of life, what is the breath but Gods life giving spirit.

When you breath your last you give up the ghost.

Remember Adam was a lifeless body until God breathed into him. What part of man is the closest link to God? His Spirit part. But Gods life giving spirit, it seems,when breathed into a new body, creates a new soul: mind, will and emotions.

Makes sense to me.

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Homer
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Homer » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:54 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
Also, it says that Adam BECAME a living soul. It doesn't say that Adam RECEIVED a soul. Again, the idea of a soul that inhabits a body is a Greek philosophical idea that was imported into Christendom.
So why does Paul use all three Greek words here, was he uninspired and influenced by Greek philosophy?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NASB)

23. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit (pnuema) and soul (psuche) and body (soma) be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And how can the three be divided?

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB)

12. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow (body), and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.


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Paidion
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:08 pm

I disagree I believe when a saint dies they go to heaven, their soul does. Or the sinner when he dies his soul goes to hades. the body decays in the earth until resurrection.

The body is not fleshily resurrected until the first or second resurrection.
If this is the case, why a bodily resurrection at all? Wouldn't it be perfectly fulfilling to just live in heaven eternally as disembodied spirits?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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njd83
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:15 pm

Paidion wrote:
I disagree I believe when a saint dies they go to heaven, their soul does. Or the sinner when he dies his soul goes to hades. the body decays in the earth until resurrection.

The body is not fleshily resurrected until the first or second resurrection.
If this is the case, why a bodily resurrection at all? Wouldn't it be perfectly fulfilling to just live in heaven eternally as disembodied spirits?
Paul says we take on incorruptible bodies we were made to be flesh that's our creation

Maybe in the future ages well terraform more planets and have need for our biology ;)
God sure has the power

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Paidion
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:23 pm

So why does Paul use all three Greek words here...?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NASB)

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit (pnuema) and soul (psuche) and body (soma) be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Spirit, soul, and body are but three aspects of the whole person. Paul mentioned the three to emphasize his desire to see the Thessalonians sanctified entirely, as he said.
And how can the three be divided?

Hebrews 4:12 (NASB)

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow (body), and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
The soul (self) and spirit (of life) cannot be divided while the person lives, any more than the joints and marrow of a living body can be divided (without killing the person). The Word of God is Jesus, and He can discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. He is living and active, and his ability to discern or judge can be compared to a two-edged sword. This figurative language of a two-edged sword dividing soul and spirit and joints and marrow emphasizes how completely Jesus is able to know us, both our thoughts and intentions.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:35 pm

Remember, again, that our English translations are difficult to get original meaning from. The root word "psuche" is used in places you can't tell.
But a natural[soulish] man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1 Corinthians 2:14

...it is sown a natural [soulish] body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul[psuche].” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual...
1 Corinthians 15: 44-46

This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural[soulish], demonic.
James 3:15

These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded[soulish], devoid of the Spirit.
Jude 19

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Paidion
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:31 pm

But a natural[soulish] man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14
Yes, the soulish man is the selfish man. "ψυχη"(psyche) in the NT means "self." The things of God are foolishness to him, for what is valuable to him is what serves his selfish purposes. The self-serving person is the opposite to the spiritual person who is subject to the spirit of God.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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njd83
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:38 pm

I think a good difference is the tree of life versus the tree of knowledge. Knowing good and evil is not intrinsically evil, but choosing our own (soulish) way is.

The tree of knowledge is our soul choosing for ourselves good or evil. Ourselves choosing God's way or the Life by faith relationship is inherently always filled with life. Our own way is not.

Even though it may be good based on law, it is not filled empowered with the Life of Christ/God, walk by faith/Spirit.. Always choosing God by faith is God's delight. The cross to our self life, flaming sword guarding the tree of life. Our self life must be cut to get God's life. (Learned much of this from Zac poonen)

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