Hold to repentance

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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Paidion
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:44 pm

Knowing good and evil is not intrinsically evil, but choosing our own (soulish) way is.
CORRECT! The writer to the Hebrews wrote:

Hebrews 5:14 ESV But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:30 pm

To me I understand that the word of God can determine between soulish and Spiritual. That which originates from us, and that which originates from God. Also learned that from Zac Poonen.

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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:32 pm

Obviously the Will of God lasts forever due to His power and divine wisdom, who can know better? Therefore the Spiritual is the best choice, and not of us unless we are one with him already, teleiotes perfect, wholly spiritual, wholly sanctified.

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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:47 am

Paidion, what do you think of God saying "my soul(nephesh)" when he has no flesh?
‘I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul(nephesh) shall abhor you" Leviticus 26:30
God is Spirit like Jesus said. But has a Soul. (Which the church father's seem to teach was one variety of spirit. Pneuma and psuche. Ruach and nephesh)

God exists without flesh. Has a soul. How come a human being can't exist without flesh, as a soul?
"You will not abandon my soul/nephesh/psuche to Hades/Sheol" Acts 2:27/Psalm 16:10
....there are three things out of which, as I have shown, the complete man is composed—flesh, soul[psuche], and spirit[pneuma]. One of these does indeed preserve and fashion [the man]—this is the spirit; while as to another it is united and formed—that is the flesh; then [comes] that which is between these two—that is the soul, which sometimes indeed, when it follows the spirit, is raised up by it, but sometimes it sympathizes with the flesh, and falls into carnal lusts....
-Irenaeus - Against Heresies - book 5 chapter 9
We recognise two varieties of spirit, one of which is called the soul (ψυχή/psuche), but the other is greater than the soul, an image and likeness of God:
-Tatian - Address to the Greeks, chapter 7

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Paidion
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:29 pm

Greetings njd, you wrote:Paidion, what do you think of God saying "my soul(nephesh)" when he has no flesh?
‘I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul(nephesh) shall abhor you" Leviticus 26:30
In the Hebrew writings, a soul (nephesh) was "a being." Thus "God's soul" is "God's being."
Sometimes "nephesh" meant "life." Consider the first occurrences of the word in the King James Bible:

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (nephesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (nephesh) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life (nephesh), I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh).
Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature (nephesh), that was the name thereof.
Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life (nephesh) thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Genesis 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives (nephesh)will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life (nephesh) of man.

Can a soul be dead? Is it possible to touch a dead soul?
Numbers 19:11 He that toucheth the dead body (nephesh) of any man shall be unclean seven days.

You wrote:God is Spirit like Jesus said. But has a Soul.
No. God doesn't have a "soul"; He is a "soul." That is, He is a being.
God exists without flesh. Has a soul. How come a human being can't exist without flesh, as a soul?
Again, God doesn't HAVE a soul; He IS "a soul" (a being). A human being is also a being—a unified being. Mind and body are but two words describing two aspects of that human being. Your question is like asking, "How come a bicycle doesn't exist after you take it apart?"
You wrote:"You will not abandon my soul/nephesh/psuche to Hades/Sheol" Acts 2:27/Psalm 16:10
"You will not abandon my being to the grave, or let your Holy One experience corruption." (Instead, You will raise Him to life again.)
Indeed, this is Peter's point in quoting that passage; just read the verses following Acts 2:27:

29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,
31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

....there are three things out of which, as I have shown, the complete man is composed—flesh, soul[psuche], and spirit[pneuma]. One of these does indeed preserve and fashion [the man]—this is the spirit; while as to another it is united and formed—that is the flesh; then [comes] that which is between these two—that is the soul, which sometimes indeed, when it follows the spirit, is raised up by it, but sometimes it sympathizes with the flesh, and falls into carnal lusts....
-Irenaeus - Against Heresies - book 5 chapter 9
Irenæus may have been influenced by Greek thought, as indeed was all of Christendom in his time and later. On the other hand, he may have been writing about three aspects of the whole human person—the physical body, the mind (which he calls "soul") and the very life of a person, which he labels "spirit."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:51 pm

Paidion, I really believe you are wrong about this.... =)

But I wonder even if I presented good arguments, if you would not rethink it

First you are presumin that the greeks were wrong on the these topics/ideas.

Second you are saying that Dives in Hades was just a made up vision, with no realistic value, no real threat of torment or punishment for evil.

Meaning, Even though Jesus warned the selfish rich about torment in a flame, there really is no flame. That's lying. A grave is actually whats really waiting for you, how nice. I'm sure the poor people who cry out to God about that are happy God really only meant "grave".

and then, this really isn't much of a warning:
“Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you.[what miseries?, there is only the grave] Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire[just the grave actually]. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure! Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and put to death the righteous man; he does not resist you.” (James 5:1–6, NASB95)
What else can we explain away? What else can be trusted or not?

Come on Paidion, that doesn't make sense. =(

And Number 19:11 does not translate that way: look literally at it, I posted it before.
Numbers 19:11, Hebrew OT:

11 הַנֹּגֵ֥עַ בְּמֵ֖ת לְכָל־נֶ֣פֶשׁ אָדָ֑ם וְטָמֵ֖א שִׁבְעַ֥ת יָמִֽים׃

11 The one who touches the dead-corpse(behmet) of a nephesh(soul) of an adam-kind shall be unclean seven days

Septuagint, Greek, Numbers 19:11,

11 Ὁ(whoever) ἁπτόμενος(touches) τοῦ(the) τεθνηκότος(corpse) πάσης(of any) ψυχῆς(soul) ἀνθρώπου(of a human) ἀκάθαρτος(unclean) ἔσται(will be) ἑπτὰ(seven) ἡμέρας(days)·

11 “ ‘The one who touches the corpse(thnesko) of any human(anthropos) being(psuche) will be unclean for seven days.

11 The one who touches the corpse of any soul of a human will be unclean for 7 days.

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Paidion
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:47 pm

--------------------------------------------------THE BIBLICAL MEANING OF “SOUL”--------------------------------------------------------------

________________________________________New Testament______________________________________________________

LIFE
Mark 8:35 For whoever would save his soul will lose it; and whoever loses his soul for my sake and the gospel’s will save it.

SELF
Matt 20:27,28 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his soul as a means of liberation in place of many."

Matt 6:25 "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your soul, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not the soul more than food, and the body more than clothing?

Luke 12:19
And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.’
(If the soul is some immaterial "real you," how could this man talk to his soul? Who was doing the talking)

Matt 12:18 (Quoting Isaiah) "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Matt 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me."

Luke 14:26 "If any one comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple.


PERSON
Acts 3:23 (Quoting Moses) And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.

Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

____________________________________________Old Testament__________________________________________________

BEING
Gen 2:7 then the Yahweh God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (The man didn't receive a soul; he became a soul).

LIFE
Gen 1:20 swarms of creatures that have soul.

Leviticus 17:11 ‘For the soul of the flesh is in the blood …

SELF
Genesis 27:4 and prepare a savory dish for me such as I love, and bring it to me that I may eat, so that my soul may bless you before I die."

Leviticus 19:28 You shall not make any gashes in your flesh for the soul or tattoo any marks upon you: I am Yahweh.

PERSON
Leviticus 21:1 Yahweh said to Moses: Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them: No one shall defile himself for a dead soul among his relatives.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:53 pm

Paidon,

another presumption, that a particular english word best represents the hebrew or greek word. not so

A greek word best represents the greek word

A hebrew word best represents the hebrew word

I know that makes it hard, but that's how it is my friend

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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by Paidion » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:06 pm

Hi njd, you wrote:Second you are saying that Dives in Hades was just a made up vision, with no realistic value, no real threat of torment or punishment for evil.

Meaning, Even though Jesus warned the selfish rich about torment in a flame, there really is no flame. That's lying. A grave is actually whats really waiting for you, how nice. I'm sure the poor people who cry out to God about that are happy God really only meant "grave".
In its ancient use in the heathen religions, hades was a place in which the dead were conscious. In later usage, the word simply meant "the grave."—as for example: Acts 2:31 "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in hades , nor did His flesh see corruption.

However, even the Jewish people in Jesus' day believed in hades as the place where all the dead went after death.Jesus gave a parable to the Pharisees as recorded in Luke 16. Sometimes Jesus used common beliefs to bring about a point in his parables. In this case, he used this parable with the Jews to show that even if it were possible for someone to return from the dead, and tell them about the pains of the wicked in hades, they still would not believe.

Whereas I believe it to be true, that when you die you're dead and will remain dead until the resurrection, I do believe that there is a resurrection of the righteous and of the unrighteous, and that there will be severe correction for the unrighteous couple with God's loving appeals to them.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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njd83
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Re: Hold to repentance

Post by njd83 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:14 pm

How do you know they were being metaphorical? It's not like there's a warning. Sure seems literal to me. And the early church father's agree to the literal Greek nt, meaning that the Greeks were pretty correct on some ideas. And remember the fathers, using/quoting the Greek prophet Sibyll was very effective at persuading the Greeks that the Christ is the True. Greeks had something good with Socrates/Sibyll etc. No wonder Paul references the Greeks by name as seeking good wisdom, although falling short as well. But Hebrews had the full oracles of God.

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