Does belief save?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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Seeker
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Does belief save?

Post by Seeker » Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:26 pm

Romans 10:9 seems to indicate "no."

For fairness to the topic, here are two of the more literal translations from two different original sources:
ESV: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
NKJV: 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

The fact that the end of the passage says that you "will be saved" strongly indicates, to me at least, that believe, even true-hearted belief, does not in-and-of-itself save you.

This leaves wide open the believe that we must be purified of our sins in a way *other than* the work of the cross. Whatever Jesus did at the cross, it does not seem to include saving believers per se. The cross may assist in saving believers, but does not actually do so. Otherwise, why would the passage end with "will be" ? If belief saves, then the passage should have said "you are saved" not "you will be saved."

My thesis then is that those who truly believe that Jesus was raised from the dead are on a path to salvation. They may suffer bumps and bruises along the way, but you will get to salvation eventually, because their heart is set in the right direction. But belief itself does not DO the saving.

Would appreciate any thoughts on this.

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Paidion
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Re: Does belief save?

Post by Paidion » Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:34 pm

First, I am glad that you understand "being saved" to refer to "being purified of our sins". For there are a great number of people who think it means "being saved from going to hell because of our sins".

You are right also in understanding that belief alone does not save us from our sins (or purify us from our sins). For Jesus said that Everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields, for his sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit eternal life. Here are his words:

...everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit eternal life. (Matt 19:29 NRSV)


My understanding is that we must leave our self-serving manner of life, and submit to the authority of Jesus in our lives in order to be saved (delivered) from our wrongdoing here on earth, and to be resurrected to eternal life with God and with our genuine brothers and sisters in Christ.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Does belief save?

Post by Homer » Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:33 pm

Seeker wrote:
My thesis then is that those who truly believe that Jesus was raised from the dead are on a path to salvation. They may suffer bumps and bruises along the way, but you will get to salvation eventually, because their heart is set in the right direction. But belief itself does not DO the saving.
Nor are we saved by our own efforts (works):

Galatians 2:21
New American Standard Bible 1995
21. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”


The article "the" is not in the Greek. I would say Paul has in mind any law keeping. We are saved by faith (pistis) which can be translated "faith" or "faithfulness". That faith must persevere to the end:

Revelation 2:10
New American Standard Bible 1995
10. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you
will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.


We never get beyond the need for God's grace. That's my two cents. :D

Seeker
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Re: Does belief save?

Post by Seeker » Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:19 pm

Homer wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:33 pm
Seeker wrote:
My thesis then is that those who truly believe that Jesus was raised from the dead are on a path to salvation. They may suffer bumps and bruises along the way, but you will get to salvation eventually, because their heart is set in the right direction. But belief itself does not DO the saving.
Nor are we saved by our own efforts (works):

Galatians 2:21
New American Standard Bible 1995
21. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”


The article "the" is not in the Greek. I would say Paul has in mind any law keeping. We are saved by faith (pistis) which can be translated "faith" or "faithfulness". That faith must persevere to the end:

Revelation 2:10
New American Standard Bible 1995
10. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you
will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.


We never get beyond the need for God's grace. That's my two cents. :D
Thanks for taking the time Homer. I'm guessing faithfulness means more to you than belief in the cross and would involve works?

Seeker
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Re: Does belief save?

Post by Seeker » Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:29 pm

Paidion wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:34 pm
First, I am glad that you understand "being saved" to refer to "being purified of our sins". For there are a great number of people who think it means "being saved from going to hell because of our sins".

You are right also in understanding that belief alone does not save us from our sins (or purify us from our sins). For Jesus said that Everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields, for his sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit eternal life. Here are his words:

...everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and will inherit eternal life. (Matt 19:29 NRSV)


My understanding is that we must leave our self-serving manner of life, and submit to the authority of Jesus in our lives in order to be saved (delivered) from our wrongdoing here on earth, and to be resurrected to eternal life with God and with our genuine brothers and sisters in Christ.
Thanks Paidon! Having read you for a long time, I think we are roughly on the same page when it comes to salvation. Your writing here over the years has helped to mold my understanding in fact. To go a little further along in the topic... I believe that most people, even among those who call themselves Christians, will require time in hell after death. There are a few people I know who to the best of my knowledge would not. Of course, it all depends on God's standards, not mine. But if we must be as pure as I suspect we will need to be for heaven to truly be heaven, then most (that I know at least) need more purification, including me! I'm interested in your thoughts on that.

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darinhouston
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Re: Does belief save?

Post by darinhouston » Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:49 pm

I think "saved" is one of those terms that means different things in different contexts (and sometimes more than one thing in a given context). It can refer to the act of conversion, the freedom from being enslaved from sin, the lifelong process of "being saved" and moving towards holiness, and the final reality of avoiding hell.

In this context, I think it's a hermeneutical mistake in that passage to assume he was talking to people who had already believed and implying that they would thereafter be saved. I think he's stating a general truth that when people (at whatever time now or in the future) believe (and declare) then those people will be saved by that confession. The very next verse reinforces that it is in the speaking of the confession that you are saved, not sometime later (though you might still continue to be "being" saved in a different context and someday ultimate be saved in another context ).

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Homer
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Re: Does belief save?

Post by Homer » Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:53 pm

Here is how I see it:

How we live is the objective evidence (faithfulness) of the abstract condition that is in our hearts (faith). Works are evidentiary of what we are.

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Paidion
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Re: Does belief save?

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:52 am

We all need enabling grace to do the works of God.

Stephen, full of grace and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. (Acts 6:8 NRSV)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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