Equipping the Saints

[mikew]

This question arises from Anochria's topic on overseers.

We are given the following ideas from Paul to the Ephesians
Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

What skills and knowledge do the ministers need to impart to the general believers in order to equip the saints?

[mikew]

Hi Mike,
Great question.

This question arises from Anochria's topic on overseers.

We are given the following ideas from Paul to the Ephesians
Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

What skills and knowledge do the ministers need to impart to the general believers in order to equip the saints?

The apostles and prophets played a vital role in defining and documenting the gospel message. This was needed to lay the foundation of knowledge and truth. Such foundation was critical at the inception such that the abundant growth among gentiles would not result in the gentiles' domination in adding their own spin on doctrine. Such spin then would have obscured the gospel -- there are even some "other gospels" that may be evidence of the potential wrong doctrines that could have tried to take root among the believers.

The evangelists of course were the growth wing of the church's operations. These were the guys and gals most responsible for adding members from outside sources.

Pastors and teachers would be those who see what has become a problem in the church or what is needed to keep the believers living properly. In Anocria's topic on overseers, we could see overseers as possibly having the a dominant role of preventing bad doctrines from gaining roots into the church body, the pastors and teachers then when share the overseer's insight and correction with the body of the church. Yet these points only reflect the obstacles to "the work of ministering"

Hence, we have to look at constructive teachings. The goal is to make part of the body reasonably productive. Or we are trying to make each part of the body work in its intended natural function.

So pastors and teachers (I tend to aggregate these two terms into one activity -- that of seeing the problems and then teaching the correct knowledge to those problems) then may need to teach administrators how to manage tasks; to equip those with the gift of mercy how to properly show mercy; and to teach everyone how to show the love of Christ to each other.

Most of this "work of ministering" and "building up of the body" seems to focus on the interactions of believers in each others' life, as contrasted with the idea of evangelism which focuses on reaching outsiders. The focus of Eph 4:11-12 would be upon the idea of developing upon the words of Christ
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I'm sure in some places, the proper skills are taught and learned. Maybe more often we just see people who were behave intrinsic to their nature -- but this means that some other people aren't taught the skills they need to act in accord with their gifts (I'm contemplating the idea of a gift that is not properly developed in these people).

So anyhow, I was seeking to promote some discussion on these goals for pastors and teachers. Part of the modern day benefit of Eph 4:11-12 would come as a result of church leaders properly searching how believers are to minister toward one another.

[darinhouston]

I think equipping the saints requires different things at different times and places -- equipping the saints to survive persecution in some cases, equipping others to exegete scripture or to pray or to avoid sin or to love or to worship or to crucify the flesh, or to answer atheist objections, to understand the historical roots of their faith, to protect children from the world to relate properly to a spouse, to .... (as the case may be) or in many cases simply to inform what God said on a particular subject. Not more is needed, but that's a lot.

I not agree reallly that an evangelist was expected to add to the church from the outside as I don't believe there was a real "outside" in mind and they fully expected that the Holy Spirit would add to the church. I don't have much proof, but my understanding is that they primarily intended for evangelists to spread the word about Christ beyond that closer "outside" world that would be having direct contact with Christians, and that the Spirit would already be moving among those being exposed to the radical lifestyles of the Christians around them that this was not really the primary mission of the evangelist -- I think of "evangelist" (in the first century context at least) more as we would think of "missionary."

[mikew]

I think equipping the saints requires different things at different times and places -- equipping the saints to survive persecution in some cases, equipping others to exegete scripture or to pray or to avoid sin or to love or to worship or to crucify the flesh, or to answer atheist objections, to understand the historical roots of their faith, to protect children from the world to relate properly to a spouse, to .... (as the case may be) or in many cases simply to inform what God said on a particular subject. Not more is needed, but that's a lot.

That's a good point, Darin. Indeed we can see Paul addressing different problems in different church locations. Is there a reason though to deemphasize "works of ministering"? or was that represented in your answer?

I not agree reallly that an evangelist was expected to add to the church from the outside as I don't believe there was a real "outside" in mind and they fully expected that the Holy Spirit would add to the church. I don't have much proof, but my understanding is that they primarily intended for evangelists to spread the word about Christ beyond that closer "outside" world that would be having direct contact with Christians, and that the Spirit would already be moving among those being exposed to the radical lifestyles of the Christians around them that this was not really the primary mission of the evangelist -- I think of "evangelist" (in the first century context at least) more as we would think of "missionary."

Maybe my word "outside" doesn't quite sound correct. But definitely any missionary work to people in a different city or country would meet my expectation too.

[darinhouston]

That's a good point, Darin. Indeed we can see Paul addressing different problems in different church locations. Is there a reason though to deemphasize "works of ministering"? or was that represented in your answer?

My perspective is that we all are to minister to each other. Do you suggest there's a particular role for "ministering?" I assume you mean what folks today mean by "pastoral ministry."

[mikew]

That's a good point, Darin. Indeed we can see Paul addressing different problems in different church locations. Is there a reason though to deemphasize "works of ministering"? or was that represented in your answer?

My perspective is that we all are to minister to each other. Do you suggest there's a particular role for "ministering?" I assume you mean what folks today mean by "pastoral ministry."

Nah. I wouldn't be referring to the pastoral ministry. Like you said, "We are to minister to each other." And that therefore is what "work of ministering" is about. So I was noticing how Eph 4:12 mentioned that pastors and teachers(among others listed) were to prepare us to do the work of ministering. But then how do pastors and teachers prepare us for ministering to one another? I think this area of teaching is largely neglected.

When I mentioned teaching to those who would show mercy, my concept was that pastors and teachers should give instruction, as needed, to help me show mercy to each other. Or some people are gifted toward exhortation in which case they should be taught more tools and knowledge toward this behavior. (Rom 12:8)

On the other hand it could be argued that Eph 4:11-12 (and adjoining verses) only describes the idea of "work of ministering" that is not applicable to us today.

[darinhouston]

I think you may be assuming that the "perfecting, work, and building" results only from the pastors and teachers. I take it that the whole preceding discussion is "for the ... of the saints," generally. All of the above is so that the saints would be perfected and ministered to and built up.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

[mikew]

I think you may be assuming that the "perfecting, work, and building" results only from the pastors and teachers. I take it that the whole preceding discussion is "for the ... of the saints," generally. All of the above is so that the saints would be perfected and ministered to and built up.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

Nope. I'm not thinking or assuming that "perfecting, ministering,building" only comes from pastors and teachers. ( If you notice any emphasis on pastors and teachers, its because the verse is describing their role toward the goal.)

I think we basically have agreement on the concepts. The goal is about "building of [the body] itself in love" (vs 16).

So I was trying to first emphasize certain behaviors among Christians that reflect interaction (each joint supplying) -- such as mercy, exhortation, giving. And then I was trying to show that if pastors and teachers are acting most effectively, then they see in what manner some joints of the body aren't functioning properly. So the alert pastor/teacher will teach what is useful toward making those joints work properly (to help those joints to minister to the rest of the body).

And I was implying in my discussion that pastors and teachers ought to consider the objective ( help the body build itself in love) .

[darinhouston]

Of course. I agree. But, the apostles and prophets etc. all do the same, no? I just see this as saying that all the normal roles the functions serve work towards the same end.