Matthew 24: 1-44 Question

[Guest]

I used the NASB here. (see below)

I'm trying to make some sense of all of this.

I know what the Full Preterist would say here, but I'm trying to figure it out from the Partial Preterist view.

Now from what I understand, the Partial Preterist will say VS. 36 and on shows that Jesus will still return. I'm trying to understand that because the flow of the passage seems to indicate it happened in that time.

So if someone could offer help.




Mat 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.
Mat 24:2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
Mat 24:5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
Mat 24:6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for {those things} must take place, but {that} is not yet the end.
Mat 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
Mat 24:8 "But all these things are {merely} the beginning of birth pangs.
Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Mat 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Mat 24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Mat 24:12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Mat 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Mat 24:18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Mat 24:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Mat 24:20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Mat 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There {He is,}' do not believe {him.}
Mat 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Mat 24:25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.
Mat 24:26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, {or,} 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe {them.}
Mat 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mat 24:32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
Mat 24:33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, {right} at the door.
Mat 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Mat 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Mat 24:37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
Mat 24:38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Mat 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Mat 24:41 "Two women {will be} grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Mat 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Mat 24:43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Mat 24:44 "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think {He will.}

[Guest]

maybe luke can clarify it.

They did ask Jesus 2 qu;

When will not one stone be on another,
and what will be the sign of your coming.


Jerusalem and temple destroyed, jews scattered to nations 70 AD;

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

UNTIL the times of the gentiles--over Jerusalem--is fulfilled

1967 seems significant here;

2nd qu

25 "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."


29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees;
30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

[Guest]

UNTIL the times of the gentiles--over Jerusalem--is fulfilled

1967 seems significant here;

Why would 1967 be significant? Did the times of the Gentiles trampling down Jerusalem end then?

I know people equate this with the church age, and in some ways of looking at it that might be correct. But the context is about Jerusalem being trampled by Gentiles. Are not unbelieving Jews (since the time of Christ when the old covenant was abolished) considered Gentiles? Are their actions in modern Israel not more trampling down of true Jerusalem?

Rom 2:23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law.
Rom 2:24 For, as it is written, "The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
Rom 2:25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
Rom 2:27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.
Rom 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
Rom 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

The Jews that fail to come to Christ, are viewed as uncircumcised, because they are still in violation of God's commands. They can be restored in Chirst, and they don't have to wait for the rapture either.

Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

You comment was short, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.

[Guest]

I used the NASB here. (see below)

I'm trying to make some sense of all of this.

I know what the Full Preterist would say here, but I'm trying to figure it out from the Partial Preterist view.

Now from what I understand, the Partial Preterist will say VS. 36 and on shows that Jesus will still return. I'm trying to understand that because the flow of the passage seems to indicate it happened in that time.

So if someone could offer help.

Mat 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Mat 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

I believe most would say that this is the break in the flow. Jesus ends the previous prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD with verse 34. Then, speaking about His second coming, heaven and earth passing away would be equated with the destruction of the judgment Jesus beings at the second coming:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.


Peter mentions the coming as a "thief"and "destruction". Paul mentions destruction by fire and destruction.

Jesus also said He didn't know the day or the hour, pointing out that this may be because He doesn't know about the timing of the second coming but He knew very much about the events that would transpire before 70AD.

I can also see how someone could see verses 36-44 with 70AD in view, or as a typological fulfillment pointing ahead to the second coming.

[Guest]

2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

I've seen many other post where even the Partial Preterist will point out who the author is speaking to. Example above: "you"

So with that said, I'm still having a tough time seeing it as a future fulfillment. I for sure don't see how it could be fulfilled in that day, but maybe the Full Preterist are on to something... I don't know. Or just maybe the Futurist have some good points.

[Guest]

2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

I've seen many other post where even the Partial Preterist will point out who the author is speaking to. Example above: "you"

So with that said, I'm still having a tough time seeing it as a future fulfillment. I for sure don't see how it could be fulfilled in that day, but maybe the Full Preterist are on to something... I don't know. Or just maybe the Futurist have some good points.

I am not a full preterist and I firmly believe in the literal physical return of Christ and I believe that the physical resurrection is yet future. that said I also firmly believe that Matt 24 has NOTHING to do with the second coming. The very context that frames the disciples question is Jesus prediction of the destruction of the temple. The Jews understood from the OT that the second temple WOULD eventually be destroyed and that the messiah when He came would build the third temple. Understanding this allows us to understand what the disciples were asking. they were not asking about when Jesus would return, they didnt even yet understand that He was even going anywhere. When they asked, "What is the sign of our coming", they were not asking about his return. they were asking WHEN would he be revealed as the messiah and begin His rule. the second half of the question is firmly linked to the first. "and the end of the age". they understood that when Christ was revealed and began his rule as the messiah that this would herald the begining of a new age. the age of the messianic kingdom. NOT the "end of the world."

Full preterists, amils and most others still insist on trying to make the "coming of the son of man" as the second coming but it is NOT. the coming of the son of man is a reference to Daniel 7 where the "One like th eson of man comes in the clouds of heaven to the Anceint of days and he receives and kingdom, Dominon, and glory". this is how Jesus hearers would have understood his references to himself as the "Son of man" and of the "Son of man comingi in the clouds."

[Guest]

jeff-s wrote:

UNTIL the times of the gentiles--over Jerusalem--is fulfilled

1967 seems significant here;


Sean wrote-:
Why would 1967 be significant? Did the times of the Gentiles trampling down Jerusalem end then?
[/quote]


Hi Sean,
Well to the Jew it was a significant moment. Did God or the prophets promise such a moment?

Looking at the whole verse-;

"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

He says they are led away and gentiles rule jerusalem ,but the time will come when that will end-------------as they will be led back is how i see this as happening.

Joel-

1 "For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,


2 I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat[2][I.e. YHWH judges].
Then I will enter into judgment with them there
On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
And they have divided up My land.

rev

13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

[Guest]

Hi Sean,
Well to the Jew it was a significant moment. Did God or the prophets promise such a moment?

Again, the question is: "Who is a Jew"? Does one born of Jewish blood earn special favor with God? God did have a national covenant with Israel, but that covenant ended. You could then point to the covenant with Abraham. Did the promises of Abraham trickle down to those of Jewish linage or to those who have faith? Paul affirms that the promises were to Abraham and is "seed" who is Christ. If you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. If one rejects the Messiah, they are cut off from true Israel.

To say God would bring the Jews who are not in Christ back to the land because God promised, I would say that what was promised comes only to those who believe (Gal 3:22).

Not all who are descended from Israel are true Israel. So to take an OT promise and apply it to modern day unbelievers simply because they are Jews seems to contradict NT teaching.

He says they are led away and gentiles rule jerusalem ,but the time will come when that will end-------------as they will be led back is how i see this as happening.

It seems to say that they will trample down Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. If that time is now, then that must mean the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. I don't see how that can be the case. I certainly believe God wants them in the land they occupy, because I see God as the one who sets boarders and boundaries. Not because God owes them something based on their geneology. God has offered blessing to Israel:

Act 3:22 Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.
Act 3:23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.'
Act 3:24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
Act 3:25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'
Act 3:26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness."

Jesus came to the Jews first, to bless them. But those who do not listen to Him will be cut off from the people. How is it then that those who are Jews today, that have rejected the Messiah and have been cut off from "the people" are still considered "the people"?

That is where my hang up is. It's not the promises so much as who they apply to.

[Guest]

That is where my hang up is. It's not the promises so much as who they apply to.

Thanks for pointing all that out Sean, very good point.

I'm hoping though we can work through the original topic.

I am not a full preterist and I firmly believe in the literal physical return of Christ and I believe that the physical resurrection is yet future. that said I also firmly believe that Matt 24 has NOTHING to do with the second coming.

So Benaiah, can you give me some scripture to back that up?

2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Sean, I was hoping you could comment on this. It's pretty clear he was talking to them; as stated earlier, I've seen this same argument used for the tribulation.

I suppose if could be nailed down that easy, there wouldn't be all short of other views.

[Guest]

So Benaiah, can you give me some scripture to back that up?

You have already noted the problem of viewing those passages as referring to the second coming. the time references as well as the "YOU" references in those passages do not lend themselves to a reasonable futuristic viewpoint.

consider this, the people that heard Jesus words did not have a NT. they did however have an intimate knowledge of the OT. put yourself in their shoes what do phrases like "Son of man" and "Coming in the clouds" bring to mind to a person who knows the OT very well? the answer of course is Daniel 7 and ezekial. also they surely recognized Jesus use of Isaiah 13:10 in his description of "phenomena" like the sun be darkend, and the moon not giving her light. and knowing that it was in a passage about God's judgment against a city
ation "babylon" they would understand he was not talking about literal cosmic signs but speaking in apocolyptic language often employed by OT prophets in describing God's judgments.

In the OT Yahweh is depicted as a warrior whose chariot is the clouds and who comes to fight against His enemies riding on the clouds of heaven.

Isa 19:1 The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

God did not literally appear riding on a cloud into egypt. but his declaration of judgment DID come to pass carried out by the assyrianis. Yet God clearly stated that it was HIM who brought about the destruction and judgment upon egypt. in the NT we have Jesus employing the same type of language about them "seeing" him coming on the clouds in a discourse about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.