am i isreal or judah?

[Guest]

Hebrews 8:8 describes the new covenant as being between god, Isreal and Judah. As a Christian, how do I fit in this equation?

[Guest]

Of course, God's New Covenant was offered "to the Jew first" but "also to the Greek." It was ratified with a covenant meal in the upper room (Matt.26:28), by Christ with the believing remnant of Israel (the disciples). It was then proclaimed in "Jerusalem and in all Judea...and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8).

Just as most of ethnic Judah and Israel rejected the first covenant (Psalm 50:16-17), so have most of them spurned the New Covenant (Romans 9-10). That does not mean that God failed to establish, in turn, both covenants with every Jew who would comply with His terms. The believing remnant of Israel, along with the believing Gentiles have embraced this covenant and have become the true seed of Abraham, the true Jews, and the truely circumcised (John 1:47; 8:39/ Rom.2:28-29/ Phil.3:3/ Gal.3:7, 29).

[Guest]

Let me offer a somewhat different perspective.

God’s promise to Ephraim, spoken through Jacob, was that “his descendants shall become a multitude of nations” (Genesis 48:20). In 722 BC, Israel (the Northern kingdom, often called Ephraim)) was scattered to the nations and, except for a few who returned with Judah after the Babylonian captivity, has been completely assimilated. After the Babylonian captivity, Judah returned to the land only to be completely dispersed among the nations after AD70. Both Abraham and Jacob were promised that their descendants would be as the stars of the heavens and the sand of the sea, and I believe this has been literally fulfilled. Physical Israel has become part of every nation on earth. It is entirely possible that most all of mankind has some ancestral heritage in Abraham, who is only the tenth generation from Noah anyway. Personally, I do not believe anyone can prove their heritage in the ancient patriarchs, including those who today are called Jews.

That said, let me be clear that physical lineage does not matter. Anyone who would follow the God of Israel has always been able to be as part of Israel (Ezekiel 37, Isaiah 56). The New Testament is pretty straightforward that those who put their faith in Yeshua (Jesus) are brought into the commonwealth of Israel, and those who reject him – Jews included – are cut off. “He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life” (1 John 5:12).

So the answer to the question “Am I Israel or Judah?” is – yes. We are made partakers of the covenant by the blood of Yeshua.

Blessings,
-larry
(A two-house believer who doesn’t make it a divisive issue, for what that’s worth)

[Guest]

p.s. - the writer of Hebrews is, of course, quoting from Jeremiah 30 & 31, which I believe reinforces what I have said.

Blessings,
-larry

[Guest]

Great answer Psalmist. I've been arguing all around this topic for a while now and while I've thought what you've put into words, I've never verbally included that premise. I just wanted to add some things:

1) the Law was ADDED to the Abrahamic Covenant (Gal 3:19) making the blessings of the first conditional upon their obedience.

2) while one person could break the covenant and bring down judgment upon the whole community (e.g. Achan, Josh 7:1, 11-12; Saul's treatment of the Gibeonites, 2 Sam 21:1; etc.), it took NATIONAL repentence to restore/renew the covenant (e.g. God's answer to Daniel's prayer beginning in Dan 9:24ff).

3) the ancient Israelites broke the covenant in a myriad of ways, but particularly by intermarrying among the nations which was forbidden by the law (Deut 7:3; Josh 23:12-13) to maintain the spiritual purity (Exo 34:12, 15-16) of Israel and tribal purity (Num 36:7). By this not only did they BREAK the covenant (Ezra 10:1-3, 10), but they became part of the nations making them indistinguishable from anyone else. This was the reason for all of those genealogical records (2 Chr 31:16, 18 ). This was the problem that Ezra was faced with regarding priests after only 70 yrs of Babylonian captivity (Ezra 2:62).

4) the Old Covenant became OBSOLETE with the inauguration of the New Covenant (Heb 8:13), so there is no basis by which modern Jews could appropriate the blessings of an obsolete covenant.

5) which was why the Lord allowed all of the genealogical records to be destroyed (except His Son's) and that system to pass away, because the Messiah had come having proved His right to the throne of his forefather, David thus fulfilling the O.C. promises.

THEREFORE, modern Jews/Judaism has no biblical basis for either the idea that they are the ETHNIC descendants OR the SPIRITUAL descendants of the patriarchs and entitled to anything promised to the ancient Israelites.

[Guest]

The promises in Hosea 1-2 and in Amos 9:7-9, both of which were specifically referring to the "lost" ten tribes of Israel, notwithstanding?

Damon

[Guest]

Actually, Veritas, I can't agree with the five points that you have outlined and that isn't at all what I meant by my post. But then again, I've never considered myself a five-pointer (pun intended and unrelated to your comments ).

Let me just say that, if we are Israelites, we should live as Yahweh said the Israelites should live. You will find me in obedience, not bondage, delighting in His Sabbath, partying like crazy during His festivals, and passing on the ham sandwiches while I wait for the return of Yeshua and the reuniting of the two houses of Israel, wherever they (we) may be.

Blessings,
-larry

[Guest]

Well, first I find it incredible that while (most) people (Jews included) are quite willing to accept the fact that the vast majority of the ancient Israelites (i.e. the 10 northern tribes) were lost to history through assimiliation those same people are quite unprepared to believe/accept that the same became of the 2 southern tribes following the Jewish War with Rome in the first century.

Even IF they were not assimilated into the nations the burden of proof is upon them to prove an unbroken, faithful pedigree back to Abraham. Which, as Christians, we should consider irrelevant now anyway in light of Christ's inauguration of the New Covenant which replaced the Old.

Secondly, regarding the prophecy of Amos 9 let me share with you something that I just read. It's from Whose Promised Land? The Continuing Crisis Over Israel and Palestine by Colin Chapman, the following is from Appendix 2:

The planting of Israel in the land (Amos 9:8-15)

Surely the eyes of the Sovereign LORD are on the sinful kingdom. "I will destroy it from the face of the earth--yet I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob," declares the LORD. "For I will give the command, and I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations as grain is shaken in a sieve, and not a pebble will reach the ground. All the sinners among My people will die by the sword, all those who say, 'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.'

In that day I will restore David's fallen tent. I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be, so that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that bear My Name, [as quoted in Acts 15:16-17]" declares the LORD, who will do these things.

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills. I will bring back My exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God."

The prophet Amos came from the southern kingdom of Judah, but was called to exercise his prophetic ministry in the northern kingdom of Israel. After preaching in the capital of Samaria from approximately 760 to 750 BC... He warned the people of the northern kingdom of a severe judgment to come (Amos 9:8.), and this was fulfilled in 721 BC when Samaria was captured and the people taken into exile in Assyria.

Most commentators find it difficult to point to any clear fulfillment of this prophecy of a return of the exile in Assyria. It would seem that the exiles were scattered all over the Assyrian Empire, and that the vast majority were assimilated with the local population. Even if a few individuals were able to return to their land, there was nothing resembling the return of the exiles from Babylon to Judah in the mid-sixth century BC.

At the council of Jerusalem described in Acts 15, Peter and Paul argue that the way in which the Gentiles had received the gospel message and the way in which God had given His Spirit and worked signs and wonders among them proved beyond dbout that He intended them to be accepted as full members of the church. James, apparently acting as a kind of chairman to the Council, accepted their argument, and went on to quote from Amos 9:11-12 to support his position.

The two verses quoted cannot be isolated from the rest of the passage. So, for example, verse 11 ('I will...restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be') is echoed in verse 14 ('they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them'). The original passage in Amos speaks about the restoration of the people of Israel to the land, the rebuilding to the ruined cities, and the permanent replanting of the people in the land. When James quotes the passage, he is trying to show that the inclusion of the Gentiles in the church is the fulfilment of the prophecies of Amos.

The restoration of Israel is not understood as something still in the future, but as something that has already taken place. And the inclusion of the Gentiles in the church is described as a result of the restoration of Israel ('...that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear My Name' - Acts 15:17).

But Pilgrim made reference to Jer 31 which is quoted by the author of Hebrews and in the original passage it not only says that Israel broke the covenant, but the writer of Hebrews says (right before he says that the Old Covenant is obsolete and passing away) that it is precisely BECAUSE they broke the covenant that He stopped showing any regard for them and was instituting a NEW Covenant unlike the Old.

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: {32} Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My Covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD." --Jer 31:31-32

"For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: {9} Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My Covenant, I regarded them not, saith the Lord. ...{13} In that He saith, A NEW Covenant, He hath made the first obsolete. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." --Heb 8:8-9, 13

[Guest]

Well, first I find it incredible that while (most) people (Jews included) are quite willing to accept the fact that the vast majority of the ancient Israelites (i.e. the 10 northern tribes) were lost to history through assimiliation those same people are quite unprepared to believe/accept that the same became of the 2 southern tribes following the Jewish War with Rome in the first century.

Right. Neither one will fall through God's hands, figuratively speaking.

Even IF they were not assimilated into the nations the burden of proof is upon them to prove an unbroken, faithful pedigree back to Abraham.

No it's not. It's the job of a priest who stands up "with Urim and Thummim." (Neh. 7:65) Such a one will be able to discern who is from what tribe, even if they're of mixed ancestry.

Secondly, regarding the prophecy of Amos 9 let me share with you something that I just read. ...

"Most commentators find it difficult to point to any clear fulfillment of this prophecy of a return of the exile in Assyria. It would seem that the exiles were scattered all over the Assyrian Empire, and that the vast majority were assimilated with the local population. Even if a few individuals were able to return to their land, there was nothing resembling the return of the exiles from Babylon to Judah in the mid-sixth century BC.

Read Genesis 49. Here, we have a passage identifying specific tribes who exist in the "last days".

Josephus himself wrote, "wherefore, there are but two tribes in Judea. The ten tribes are beyond Euphrates [a euphemism for in Parthia] and are an immense multitude, not to be measured nor counted." (Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI, Chapter V, Section 2)

In other words, Josephus is citing this as evidence for the eventual literal fulfillment of Hosea 1-2!

"...The original passage in Amos speaks about the restoration of the people of Israel to the land, the rebuilding to the ruined cities, and the permanent replanting of the people in the land. When James quotes the passage, he is trying to show that the inclusion of the Gentiles in the church is the fulfilment of the prophecies of Amos.

Well, it isn't all of the fulfillment. Jesus Himself said that He came for "the lost sheep of the House of Israel." (Mat. 10:5-6, 15:22-24) In fact, we even understand HOW and WHY the Gentiles are called in the same exact passage! I'll get to that in a moment, though.

Jesus came the first time to spiritually regather His people Israel. They had rebelled against Him and had been scattered all across the earth. It wasn't yet time for a physical regathering, because that would be useless apart from a spiritual one! Only those who were worthy could dwell in the land, whether we're talking about the physical Promised Land or the spiritual Promised Land!

Now let's read Matthew 15:22-28:

"And, lo! A Canaanite woman came out of the same country crying out to Him [Jesus]. She said, 'Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is grievously tormented by a demon.' But He didn't answer her. And His disciples came and begged him, 'Send her away, she's crying out after us!' But He answered, 'I am not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' Then she came and worshipped him, saying, 'Lord, help me.' But he answered, 'It's not appropriate to take the children's bread and cast it to dogs.' And she said, 'True, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.' Then Jesus answered her, 'O woman, your faith is great! Let it be as you have asked.' And her daughter was healed from that very hour."

What this Canaanite woman was saying was that the Gentiles could benefit from the blessing that was originally intended for Israel! I had said in another post that the Gentiles were being called in part so that they could assist in bringing Israel back to God! (Isa. 49, esp. vv. 22-23)

So I don't have to assume a future fulfillment without support from the New Testament. Jesus Himself made it clear that there must be one, in order for what He was saying to make sense.

Furthermore, I can see that you really don't understand why the House of David was mentioned in Amos 9, either, or how it applied in Acts 15:16.

What line was David from?

According to what's commonly understood, David was descended from Judah. Jesus was descended from David, who was descended from Judah (Heb. 7:14). But did you know that Jesus was ALSO descended from Joseph?

According to 1 Samuel 17:12, David's father was "an Ephraimite". Ephraim was one of the two sons of the patriarch Joseph.

Judah and Joseph are polar opposites in many ways. Try doing a study in the Scriptures about their characteristics sometime. Go back and read the story of Joseph and see what he was like! He was indirect about how he handled the situation with his brothers. Judah ain't indirect! Judah's blunt to the point of being obnoxious! Joseph was also very emotional about the whole situation. Spock on Star Trek was the "logical" Vulcan for a reason: Jews are more rational than emotional! (You knew Leonard Nimoy was Jewish, right? His split-fingered Vulcan salute comes from the way the rabbis traditionally perform the Aaronic benediction in Num. 6:23-26.)

Joseph also often has a major problem with ego and pride. Why do you think Joseph went and told his brothers about his dreams, instead of telling his father? Pride! This problem was shown to have been passed on to the whole tribe of Ephraim in Isaiah 28:1. Judah, on the other hand, is often humble because they don't feel such a need to prove themselves. (Read Leonard Nimoy's biography "I am Spock" about him trying to tell William Shatner that Shatner's idea for Star Trek 5 wouldn't fly. Shatner wouldn't let it in because of his ego but Nimoy didn't get twisted and let him do it anyway. That's what I mean.)

I could go on. Joseph liked having large families at an early age. Look at Joseph's genealogy and see how young they all married and had children! You try talking to a Jewish woman and see what she thinks about having kids.

King David literally combined these polar opposite qualities in a single person! For example, he was highly intelligent and rational, yet almost manic-depressive in the psalms he wrote.

Because the House of David has in it, Judah joined together with Joseph, it's the perfect candidate for joining the tribes of Judah and Joseph! (Remember, the lost ten tribes fall under the heading of Joseph in the Scriptures.) But in order for it to do that, the House of David itself has to be repaired and rebuilt. Jesus acted in that capacity, and that's why this was quoted in Acts 15:16, but where it's mentioned in Amos 9 has to do with the end-time House of David, which is still around. (Also see Eze. 37:15-28.)

I'm sure you'll ask how I know that the House of David is still around if we need a genealogy to prove it. There is a genealogy still around which links the last of the ruling dynasty in Judah before the Babylonian captivity with where it went afterwards. When this future archaeological discovery comes to light, the Jews will have to accept one of the House of David back as their physical king. That king will then turn the throne over to Jesus at His return.

But you don't have to take my word for it. Just wait and see.

"For finding fault with them, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: {9} Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My Covenant, I regarded them not, saith the Lord. ...{13} In that He saith, A NEW Covenant, He hath made the first obsolete. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." --Heb 8:8-9, 13

Just tell me, WHO is God making a New Covenant with, according to this passage? WHO does the passage say the New Covenant is with?

Damon

[Guest]

According to 1 Samuel 17:12, David's father was "an Ephraimite". Ephraim was one of the two sons of the patriarch Joseph.

Say what? Better read that again.

1 Samuel 17:12 NASB "Now David was the son of the Ephrathite of Bethlehem in Judah, whose name was Jesse, and he had eight sons. And Jesse was old in the days of Saul, advanced in years among men."

Blessings,
-larry