Can we do nothing more than speculate at this time?

[smcllr3]

RV You keep asking the question over and over as if those who are speculating about "end times" are doing something wrong. As a matter of fact if you think that it is wrong wouldn't that be speculation.

Maybe I should ask you, can anything good come from speculating about the effectiveness of speculating over "end times" passages? No I don't think so.

Does that sound like anyone in this thread? I won't mention their name but it begins with the letter RV... oops.

Maybe in God's sovereignty, in order to destroy the work of Satan in divisions and bad theology caused by the wrong views, he gave some teachers from all different ilks to keep us from being ignorant. That in itself is a great reason.

And hey, it's like Steve would say, if while your kids were in the midst of doing the chores you gave them, you overheard them talking about their different views of your future plans that they had only overheard bits and pieces of in your conversations with others, you wouldn't get on to them for it or even think that they were doing anything wrong. I don't know, maybe you would jump right in the middle of them and say, "Do you have anything nailed down by you speculating? No. I don't think so. Can any good come of it? No. I don't think so".

But I guess we all have an axe to grind. For some it's "end times". Good for you for breaking away and being unique.

[Paidion]

Suzana is right. It's more than speculation. It's a matter of interpretation of the prophetic scriptures, (and there are as many or more interpretations as there are prophetic scriptures)

However, no matter how we interpet the prophetic scriptures, we DO NOT KNOW what is going to happen! For the future is unknowable. There is nothing to know. Although most of God's predictions made through His prophets came true, it is also the case that He spoke several predictions through his prophets which did NOT come true. I have specified which ones in other threads. God is a perfect predictor; He makes the best predictions possible. But the future doesn't exist. That's why it's unknowable. Even the predictions of the Perfect Predictor do not always correspond to reality.

We futurists expect a personal Antichrist prior to the coming of Christ who will deceive the world, and the whole world will follow him. That is the way we understand the prophecy concerning the Beast. However, even if our intepretation is correct, it doesn't HAVE TO happen. Many or most of the people of the world could choose NOT to follow him. In that case, there will be consequences which will differ from the predicted ones.

[RV]

Suzana is right. It's more than speculation. It's a matter of interpretation of the prophetic scriptures, (and there are as many or more interpretations as there are prophetic scriptures)

OK Paidion... so who is speculating and who isn't? Not everyone is right (no mistery there).

However, no matter how we interpet the prophetic scriptures, we DO NOT KNOW what is going to happen! For the future is unknowable. There is nothing to know. Although most of God's predictions made through His prophets came true, it is also the case that He spoke several predictions through his prophets which did NOT come true. I have specified which ones in other threads. God is a perfect predictor; He makes the best predictions possible. But the future doesn't exist. That's why it's unknowable. Even the predictions of the Perfect Predictor do not always correspond to reality.

I'd like to read that thread. I have a feeling, all of those "predictions" that never came true could be argued by someone to have actually taken place; just like the Full Pret. do. Remember Paidion, there are many interpretations out there.

RV You keep asking the question over and over as if those who are speculating about "end times" are doing something wrong. As a matter of fact if you think that it is wrong wouldn't that be speculation.

Really... you gathered that from my asking this question over and over again?

Maybe I should ask you, can anything good come from speculating about the effectiveness of speculating over "end times" passages? No I don't think so.

Does that sound like anyone in this thread? I won't mention their name but it begins with the letter RV... oops.

Maybe in God's sovereignty, in order to destroy the work of Satan in divisions and bad theology caused by the wrong views, he gave some teachers from all different ilks to keep us from being ignorant. That in itself is a great reason.

And hey, it's like Steve would say, if while your kids were in the midst of doing the chores you gave them, you overheard them talking about their different views of your future plans that they had only overheard bits and pieces of in your conversations with others, you wouldn't get on to them for it or even think that they were doing anything wrong. I don't know, maybe you would jump right in the middle of them and say, "Do you have anything nailed down by you speculating? No. I don't think so. Can any good come of it? No. I don't think so".

But I guess we all have an axe to grind. For some it's "end times". Good for you for breaking away and being unique.

I really don't understand where you are coming from and why my question is so upsetting to you.

Maybe Paul should have been a little careful when he said:

"always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Ti. 3:7)

Didn't he know:

Maybe in God's sovereignty, in order to destroy the work of Satan in divisions and bad theology caused by the wrong views, he gave some teachers from all different ilks to keep us from being ignorant. That in itself is a great reason.

Whatever that is suppose to mean.

It still remains, no body can prove anything. From what I've seen it's nothing but speculation. It may very well be a matter of interpretation. No matter what, at this point, it's still speculation.

But I guess we all have an axe to grind. For some it's "end times". Good for you for breaking away and being unique.

I'm sorry that you are interpreting my question this way. It's not about grinding any axe, it's about:

Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so (Act 17:11)

[smcllr3]

Actually that was just kinda tongue in cheek. It seems like an honest question you're asking but when people try and answer it you do something similar to what I did in my last post when I said, "No. I don't think so". I was kinda mocking you and your response on the last thread that you kept going on and on about "speculation". But I was mocking in more of a joking way. Sorry you thought I was upset. Just reread that last post with a barbershop-conversation overtone. That should clear it up.

peace, broseph

[RV]

Actually that was just kinda tongue in cheek. It seems like an honest question you're asking but when people try and answer it you do something similar to what I did in my last post when I said, "No. I don't think so". I was kinda mocking you and your response on the last thread that you kept going on and on about "speculation". But I was mocking in more of a joking way. Sorry you thought I was upset. Just reread that last post with a barbershop-conversation overtone. That should clear it up.

I keep going on because I keep hoping someone will actually address my question.

Everyone has a different answer. Reason (my opinion) because if the answer to question is NO, than that means nobody really knows. For some reason when it comes to this particular subject, nobody seems comfortable with that.

I do believe it is a matter of interpretation, but I don't believe anyone can prove their interpretation is the right way.

Just go through and read all of the post under Eschatology in this forum. You'll see a lot of good ideas and you'll see good rebuttals to those ideas.

So... let the debate continue.

[Paidion]

IMO, futurists take this verse, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matt.24:36), and try to make it say something that it does NOT say at all. Jesus had just spent quite a bit of time telling His disciples that they would indeed SEE all those things happen. He said that only the Father knew the exact day and hour He would be returning, but He clearly proved that He indeed KNEW His return would be before that generation standing there listening to Him passed away.

[underlining mine]

I wouldn't say that HE "clearly proved" that He would return before that generation passed away.

It is indeed recorded that Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, this generation shall no way pass away ἑως ἀν παντα ταυτα γενηται (until all these things come into being).

It SOUNDS clear, but compare Gabriel's words to Zechariah:

And look! You will be mute and unable to speak until the day these things come into being Luke 1:20

The same words γενηται ταυτα (a different order, but that is irrelevant).

Sure enough! Zechariah emerged from the temple unable to speak. Now what things were to be fulfilled first? The angel spoke of four things which are listed below:

Now the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.

1. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.
2. for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
3. And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God,
4. and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.” Luke 1:13-17

When did Zechariah regain his power of speech? Eight days after his son John was born, at the moment he indicated that the name of the child would be John. How many of the four things had come into being by then? The first one? Did Zechariah have joy and gladness at the birth of his son? No doubt. Did many rejoice at his birth? No doubt. BUT THAT'S IT! The second one was perphaps fulfilled as far at it went (while John was 8 days old) but it continued to be fulfilled all of his life. How about the third one? Hardly! The baby was 8 days old! He hadn't turned anyone to the Lord yet. The fourth one also. It describes John's ministry as an adult.
But Gabriel said that Zechariah would be unable to speak until these things came into being. Or DID he !!!?

The Greek word "γενηται" is in the aorist tense, an indefinite tense which states only the fact of an action without specifying its duration. In this case, Zechariah was unable to speak until these things BEGAN to come into being. They did begin to come into being first. Zechariah had joy and gladness at his son's birth and many rejoiced at his birth. But the predicted events continued to come into being even after Zechariah regained his ability to speak.

It's exactly the same situation with our Lord's prediction. The indefinite aorist is used again.
Thus it is likely that the Lord really said, "Truly I tell you, this generation shall no way pass away until all these things BEGIN to come into being." And did those things BEGIN to come into being before that generation passed away? Yes, the temple was destroyed in the attack on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. But much of Christ's prophecy was not fulfilled at that time.

Some of it had continued to be fulfilled throughout the centuries (Matthew 24:5-12) but much of it has not yet been fulfilled:

1. The gospel of the kingdom proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations.

There are still some nations where the gospel has not been proclaimed.

2. The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel.

3. The Great tribulation.

4. The unusual astronomical phenomena.

5. The second coming of Christ immediately after the tribulation.

6. The mourning of all the tribes of the earth when they see Christ return.

[mtymousie]

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Rom.10:17-18)

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" (Rom.16:25-26)

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col.1:23)

Scripture repeatedly proves that Jesus Christ spoke the truth and the gospel was indeed preached to all nations before He returned in 70 AD.

preteristmouse

[Mellontes]

IMO, futurists take this verse, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matt.24:36), and try to make it say something that it does NOT say at all. Jesus had just spent quite a bit of time telling His disciples that they would indeed SEE all those things happen. He said that only the Father knew the exact day and hour He would be returning, but He clearly proved that He indeed KNEW His return would be before that generation standing there listening to Him passed away.

I wouldn't say that HE "clearly proved" that He would return before that generation passed away.

When the reader examines the following prophecies and fulfillments, not only will he find them perfectly fulfilled as to what Jesus said, but fulfilled right down to the exact Greek usage! After the Gospel was spread into all the world, the end of the world would come, and come it did. However, it was not the end of the global, planetary world, often an interpretation of present day analysis; it was the old covenant Judaistic system with its temple, rituals, and ceremony.

Prophecy:

Matthew 24:14 – And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikumene] for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Fulfillment:

Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world [oikumene].

Prophecy:

Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world [kosmos], and preach the gospel to every creature.

Fulfillment:

Colossians 1:5-6 – For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world [kosmos]; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Prophecy:

Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature [ktisis].

Fulfillment:

Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature [ktisis] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Prophecy:

Matthew 28:19 – Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [ethnos], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mark 13:10 – And the gospel must first be published among all nations [ethnos].

Fulfillment:

Romans 16:25-26 – Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations [ethnos] for the obedience of faith:

Prophecy:

Acts 1:8 – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth [ge].

Fulfillment:

Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth [ge], and their words unto the ends of the world.