Revelation -- Where is the End?

[mtymousie]

So you think Jesus was speaking about His words rather than the Prophets?

Why exactly did you try to insert "rather than" into what I said? Jesus was very clearly PROPHESYING and part of His prophecy INCLUDED Daniel's prophecy as well. Jesus very clearly said that "ALL THINGS WRITTEN" would be fulfilled before that generation passed away. Was Jesus' prophecy written or not? Even more relevant to the POINT: Did that generation see those things He said happen? If your answer is YES, then you PROVE that Jesus' words were indeed a part of "all things written", my friend.

Its fine that the kingdom came in AD70, and good to hear you hold to that view rather than the kingdom coming earlier. So indeed you can say that the kingdom came in accord with prophecy but its more difficult to say that the kingdom has been completely fulfilled. How can eternity be fulfilled at any moment in time?

The only conclusion I can gather from such a question is that your particular view of eschatology does not recognize the concept of forever. When I read the following WRITTEN prophecy, I have to believe it was indeed fulfilled just as Jesus said: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." (Dan.2:44)

Now do you see Revelation ending with the encircling of the camp of the saints?
Do you see any end of the existence of political rulers (or nations) doing their own will?

IMO, if we truly believe that Jesus meant what He said and not try to explain it away, then we are obligated to look for the fulfillment in the time frame He clearly gave. In perfect harmony with His own prophecy, He told the Revelator to write down the things which"must shortly come to pass".

Fortunately, we have an orthodox JEWISH historian who meticulously recorded eyewitness accounts of the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy even though he himself attributed it all to Daniel.

Consider that in Matt.2, Herod questioned those "wise men from the East" about what time they saw the star and he then ordered the murder of all children under TWO YEARS old in Bethlehem. Josephus records a star/comet hanging over the city for a FULL YEAR.

Coincidence that the sign of the Son of man came twice in the form of a star?

You appear to want SPECIFIC physical answers to spiritual questions and I am simply unable to supply them all, friend. All I can do is tell you that the overwhelming evidence PROVES that Jesus Christ passed the scriptural test of a true Prophet of God when His words came true before those witnesses to His prophecy.

preteristmouse

[mtymousie]

The everlasting kingdom of God came in 70 AD....

Um, hasn't the "kingdom of God" always existed?

Um, does CONTEXT have ANY bearing on a discussion?

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." (Daniel 2:44)

preteristmouse

[RND]

The everlasting kingdom of God came in 70 AD....

Um, hasn't the "kingdom of God" always existed?

Um, does CONTEXT have ANY bearing on a discussion?

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." (Daniel 2:44)

preteristmouse

Well, Daniel 2:44 would be regarding the end of all earthly kingdoms when a great stone (Jesus) would crush the image, all the way down to the feet mixed with miry clay.....That image is still standing.

I was referring to your statement that "The everlasting kingdom of God came in 70 AD...." in relation to the scriptures I referenced this simply isn't true, the Father's kingdom has always existed.

[mtymousie]

n/t

[mtymousie]

Well, Daniel 2:44 would be regarding the end of all earthly kingdoms when a great stone (Jesus) would crush the image, all the way down to the feet mixed with miry clay.....That image is still standing.

Where exactly is this image standing so I can go look at it? If your answer is going to be yet another preconceived, predigested attempt to force the Romish Church to somehow be some sort of "fulfillment" of prophecy, then please disregard my question.

preteristmouse

[RND]

Where exactly is this image so I can go look at it? If your answer is going to be yet another preconceived, predigested attempt to force the Romish Church to somehow be some sort of "fulfillment" of prophecy, then please disregard my question.

The image was an image of the various kingdoms that would rise and fall in the days before and after Christ. Are you with me so far? The head was Babylon, the arms and chest Medio-Persia, the midriff Greece and the legs of Iron were Pagan Rome. The feet, ah the feet, which were made of miry clay:

Dan 2:42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

"In the days of these kings" isn't referring to all the kingdoms represented in the statue just the kingdoms represented in the feet and toes. Ten toes, ten kingdoms. The kingdom God set up has regularly and consistently destroyed every attempt for these "kingdoms" to unite and join together....just as predicted. And yes, (close your ears!) in is Rome that is responsible for trying to join these ten kingdoms.

[mtymousie]

And Rome had ALREADY conquered TEN kingdoms before 70 AD. Imagine that, folks. Isn't it wonderful how the word of God harmonizes with itself so perfectly?

preteristmouse

[RND]

Well, Daniel 2:44 would be regarding the end of all earthly kingdoms when a great stone (Jesus) would crush the image, all the way down to the feet mixed with miry clay.....That image is still standing.

Where exactly is this image standing so I can go look at it? If your answer is going to be yet another preconceived, predigested attempt to force the Romish Church to somehow be some sort of "fulfillment" of prophecy, then please disregard my question.

preteristmouse

Hey, Rome has it's "House of Jupiter".......



"Capitoline Hill"

Temple of Jupiter (Capitoline Hill)

And Washington has it's "House of Jupiter".......



"Capitol Hill"

Capitol
Cap"i*tol\, [L. capitolium, fr. caput head: cf. F. capitole. See Chief.]

1. The temple of Jupiter, at Rome, on the Mona Capitolinus, where the Senate met.

Comes C[ae]sar to the Capitol to-morrow? --Shak.

2. The edifice at Washington occupied by the Congress of the United States; also, the building in which the legislature of State holds its sessions; a statehouse.

[RND]

And Rome had ALREADY conquered TEN kingdoms before 70 AD. Imagine that, folks. Isn't it wonderful how the word of God harmonizes with itself so perfectly?

No, that's not entirely correct mtymousie, at least not from a historical standpoint - which probably explains why I'm a "historicist!"

Pagan Rome was in existence from 27 BC to AD 476. Interestingly, that "kingdom" had two capitols (one east/one west) at one point when Constantine established Constantinople in AD 330. Obviously the kingdom with "two legs of iron" that is, "two capitols" is easily seen in this metaphor when the historical reality is taken into account.

Now, just for ha-ha's can you name one kingdom that ever existed in Christ's day that eventually split and had two separate capitols?

Just one......

[mtymousie]

For those interested in researching the historical evidence PROVING that John the Revelator wrote the TRUTH, please start with Emperor Augustus in 27 BC and start counting how many kingdoms were conquered by Rome by 70 AD.

preteristmouse