Being asleep vs. alert

[Douglas]

I have a question for how you would understand the word "sleep" and "alert" that is used in 1Thes 5:10

"He died for us so that whether we are alert or asleep we will come to life together with him."

The contrast seems to be between being "alert" or "asleep", and at first glance with obvious presupositions, it is easy to just say that this is nothing more than being alive physicially vs. dead. but when trying to put the verse in context and reading just a few verses before in 1Thes 5:6 it says...

"So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober."

It seems to me that this verse which is using the word "sleep" & "alert" is NOT refering to alive or dead physically, and therefore maybe 1Thes 5:10 is to be understood in the same context.

What do you think?

[steve]

Perhaps the idea is that we will all be brought to life (and, subsequently, to judgment), whether we are alert (as we should be) or whether we are spiritually lethargic (which he says we should not be). This would serve as a warning that those who are lethargic, or not "watching" (Matthew 24:42, 44), will be surprised—and possibly embarrassed by their not being prepared, at the time of His coming.

[Conquest]

I have a question for how you would understand the word "sleep" and "alert" that is used in 1Thes 5:10

"He died for us so that whether we are alert or asleep we will come to life together with him."

The contrast seems to be between being "alert" or "asleep", and at first glance with obvious presupositions, it is easy to just say that this is nothing more than being alive physicially vs. dead. but when trying to put the verse in context and reading just a few verses before in 1Thes 5:6 it says...

"So then we must not sleep as the rest, but must stay alert and sober."

It seems to me that this verse which is using the word "sleep" & "alert" is NOT refering to alive or dead physically, and therefore maybe 1Thes 5:10 is to be understood in the same context.

What do you think?

Not sure the translation you are using, here is the ESV’s,

1 Thess 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

Which would tie back to the comparison in 1 Thess 4:15,

15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

I think you are correct, v.8 would seem to caution against being asleep at the wheel.

4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

Given the comparison in verse 7 is regarding the drunk/sober comparison.

Conquest

[Douglas]

Which would tie back to the comparison in 1 Thess 4:15,

15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

I am currious. Do you think 1 Thess 4:15 is talking about physical death when it states "fallen asleep" or being "spiritually lethargic" as Steve says in reference to chapter 5?

[Conquest]

Which would tie back to the comparison in 1 Thess 4:15,

15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

I am currious. Do you think 1 Thess 4:15 is talking about physical death when it states "fallen asleep" or being "spiritually lethargic" as Steve says in reference to chapter 5?

Thanks for asking,

I think the context of the passage clearly dictates Paul is answering a question the Thessalonians had, which is had Christ already returned. If you read back into the letter he is dealing with several issues that he had been informed were a concern in the congregation. He deals with the concern regarding if they had missed the 2nd Advent from verse 13 till the end of the chapter.

1 Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Clearly the reference to, “the dead in Christ will rise 1st, then we who are alive” isn’t dealing with a slumber party, but is all about people who had been alive that the Apostle characterizes as “asleep” coming back to life, their dead mortal bodies reanimated. The parallel of this passage is in 1 Cor 15 where were are told essentially the same thing.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Both parallel accounts record the same concept, those who are dead as in the blood no longer pumping are raised back to life and those who are alive shall be changed and caught up. The comparsion between those that are dead, "asleep" and those that are alive seems straight=forward and clear cut to me.

Conquest

[Douglas]

Why do you think "sleep" is used sometimes to mean physicaly dead and sometimes not. I mean even the discples were confused about this at least once when Jesus spoke.

Given the fact that "sleep" can be understood differently depending on context, our presuppositions (our theology) also influences how we understand "sleep" in certain passages. Although "sleep" may be perfectly clear to someone else in regards to how it should be interpreted, I can sometimes see an alternative understanding that may or may not be intended or correct given the fact that "sleep" does not always mean the same thing.

Just an interesting observation.

[Conquest]

Why do you think "sleep" is used sometimes to mean physicaly dead and sometimes not. I mean even the discples were confused about this at least once when Jesus spoke.

Given the fact that "sleep" can be understood differently depending on context, our presuppositions (our theology) also influences how we understand "sleep" in certain passages. Although "sleep" may be perfectly clear to someone else in regards to how it should be interpreted, I can sometimes see an alternative understanding that may or may not be intended or correct given the fact that "sleep" does not always mean the same thing.

Just an interesting observation.

That's a good question, why is the concept of "sleep" sometimes used by the Apostle as a metaphor to describe those who have died. I will check out some thoughts from scholars, but it would seem off the cuff it was used by the Apostle to reinforce to the congregation that while someone may appear dead to man, to God they are still alive. This concept is discussed by Christ when the Sadducees attempted to trip him up,

Lk 20:34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons [7] of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.” 39 Then some of the scribes answered, “Teacher, you have spoken well.” 40 For they no longer dared to ask him any question. ESV

You seem to be suggesting ones theology influences the context. I would agree that the context the word is found within defines its intended meaning, but that context and meaning should shape our theology, not the other way around. Is it your position that 1 Cor 15 is not about raising the dead, “physically” back to life? Given the context of 1 Cor 15 which starts off with the rhetorical question, “how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?” in v. 12 that is then immediately followed-up by “18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.”, just 6 verses later one would be hard pressed to understand the word “sleep” in this context and the parallel account in 1 Thess 4 as anything other than a metaphor for physically dead people.

Getting back as to why the Apostle used the term “sleep” one needs to remember Corinth was a congregation dominated by converts from Pagan Greece. The Pagan’s believed in the afterlife, where the body stayed in the grave and the spirit moved on to Elysium. The Christian message was fundamentally different, proclaiming that one day the dead would indeed rise back to life just like Christ had. The dispute over this concept is the cause of the Apostle’s rhetorical question and what leads to this landmark passage defining the Christian view as not the afterlife, but there is Life, then the state of death and then Life again. As indicated I will look up some scholars and see if they have any answers, but the passage is unequivocal, the dead will come back to life. Is this not your understanding of the text when viewed in context?

Conquest.