Hi George,
Of those OT verses you gave me, the second one was easy because I recognized it right away. At least I thought so...
Isaiah 13:19-22 - And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.
I don't see how you can possibly transport any of Isaiah 13 into a future time frame. The whole of Isaiah 13 is about the soon coming destruction of Babylon by the Medes. Now, I will admit that there are certain similarities to the first century NT day of the Lord because, after all, it is about judgment and the annihilation of a nation by the divine hand of God using the armies of the Medes - just as God destroyed the old covenant economy of Judaism and Jerusalem by the Roman army.
1 Th 4 - 5
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Mellontes,
This is from an article I kept on file, I do not have the author’s name, but the organizations name that he is from is The King Messiah Project. I am in Texas (from California) borrowing my step-fathers computer.
George
“Regarding the "Day of the LORD," A challenge to Full Preterism can be found in a small Book of the Bible, which is the Book of Obadiah. Obadiah 1:15-20 states:
(15) For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
(16) For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
(17) But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
(18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
(19) And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
(20) And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.
Obadiah 1:15-20 must be fulfilled prior to 70 A.D. or to be consistent with Full Preterism. So, usually it is said that the prophecy was completed in 583 BC, when Babylon conquered Edom.
,Obadiah 1:15-20 foretells that three things would take place that has not yet taken place in our history., the three things that would take place are as follows:
1. Obadiah 1:17 indicates that there would be deliverance for the house of Jacob, and that they would possess all the possessions of the heathen nations.
2. Obadiah 1:18 advises that the house of Jacob would literally consume the entire house of Esau, who are the Edomites. In fact, the verse clearly states that "there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau."
3. And finally, Obadiah 1:20 reveals that the children of Israel would possess "that of the Canaanites." According to Genesis 17:8 and Psalm 105:7-11,"that of the Canaanites" is the Promised Land.
In actuality, in 586 BC, only three years earlier, Israel's 70-year captivity into Babylon began as was previously foretold by the prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 25:11-12 and Jeremiah 29:10.
How could there be deliverance for the house of Jacob in 583 BC as prophesied in Obadiah 1:17 when Israel was in the beginning of their seventy-year captivity in Babylon? Also, regarding Obadiah 1:17, how could the house of Jacob possess the possessions of the heathen nations in 583 BC when they were in captivity in Babylon and it was their possessions that were being possessed? Finally, Obadiah 1:18 foretells that the house of Jacob would utterly destroy the Edomites, to a point that there would be none remaining of the house of Esau. According to many Full Preterist, it was Babylon who conquered Edom in 583 BC, not the house of Jacob. Regarding the Edomites, over 400 years after 583 BC, the Macabbees were at war with the Edomites. In fact, Herod of the New Testament was an Edomite. Even Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat proclaimed himself as an Edomite, a descendent of the house of Esau. So naturally, there are Edomites left to this very day. So, how could Obadiah 1:18 possibly be fulfilled?
Now if someone cites Malachi 1:2-4 and uses it as his proof-text that the house of Esau had been completely obliterated and wiped off the face of the earth, which some Full Preterist claim ,this is what Malachi 1:2-4 says:
(2) I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
(3) And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
(4) Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, THEY SHALL BUILD, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
The Book of Malachi was written in approximately 430 BC. And during that time, the LORD vows to Edom in Malachi 1:4 that "THEY SHALL BUILD," clearly indicating that there would be a remnant of the house of Esau after 430 BC. Taking into consideration that the Macabbees fought against the Edomites three hundred years after the Book of Malachi was written, Herod was an Edomite, and Arafat is an Edomite, it's clear that Obadiah 1:18 has not yet been fulfilled because there are some that remain of the house of Esau. This sets the stage for the house of Esau's ultimate destruction at the hands of the house of Jacob…in the future! During the last twenty minutes of our exchange, I moved to Isaiah chapter 13 which is a prophecy against Babylon on the Day of the LORD (see verses 1, 6 and 9). As most of you know, Babylon is modern-day Iraq. This chapter represents a dual prophecy against Babylon, an immediate prophecy as well as a prophecy of Final Judgment. Isaiah 13:17 foretells that the Medes would come against Babylon, and they did, in 539 BC, approximately 190 years after Isaiah wrote this chapter. In that year, the Persians and the Medes conquered the Babylonian Empire when they came directly from the east. Thus, the Medeo-Persian Empire was established and the Babylonian Empire fell. In the Final Judgment against Babylon, Isaiah 13:19-20, which states:
(19) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
(20) It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
The key that Isaiah chapter 13 is a dual prophecy lies in Isaiah 13:20, which reveals that Babylon will ultimately be destroyed to a point of being uninhabitable. Naturally, this never took place in 539 BC. In fact, Arabians have been pitching tents in Babylon for the past 2700 years. I used Isaiah 13:17, 19-20 to demonstrate that there exists an obvious gap between these two prophecies. I also demonstrated that, according to Jeremiah 50:39-41, Babylon would be left uninhabitable by people that "shall come from the north." I am reminded that, according to a map of the Middle East, the Medes came directly from the east. Regarding Babylon, Jeremiah 50:39-41 states:
(39) Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell there, and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.
(40) As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.
(41) Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jeremiah 50:3, 9 also reveals that nations from the north will make Babylon a desolate wilderness. But remember, the Medes came from the east in 539 BC, not from the north.
Since Full Preterism adheres to the position that all Scriptures were fulfilled on or before 70 AD, it must be considered baseless, invalid and without merit. We need to remember that it is not necessary to defeat the Preterist on every issue, just one single issue. Regarding the Day of the Lord in Obadiah 1:15-20 and Isaiah chapter 13, Preterists follow embrace a false position because of the following reasons:
1. Obadiah 1:17 refers to deliverance for the house of Jacob. This did not only fail to take place in 583 BC, but has not taken place up to and including the year 70 AD. Between these two time periods, the house of Jacob was under the yoke of the Babylonian Empire, the Medeo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and the Roman Empire. Therefore, no deliverence has taken place. But it will…in the future!
2. Obadiah 1:17 refers to the house of Jacob possessing the possessions of all the heathen. This also did not only fail to take place in 583 BC, but did not take place up to and including the year 70 AD, for the same reasons indicated above.
3. Obadiah 1:18 reveals that the house of Jacob would completely destroy the house of Esau, the Edomites. Don Preston's claim that this occurred in 583 BC is unsubstantiated by his own admission because, according to him, it was the Babylonians who conquered Edom at that time, not the house of Jacob. Therefore, it is only logical to assume that this will be fulfilled on a future date when the house of Jacob will utterly destroy and consume the remnant of the house of Esau (Malachi 1:2-4). And, according to Isaiah 34:5-10, it will be over the controversy of Zion (see Isaiah 34:8).
4. Obadiah 1:20 reveals that the children of Israel will possess that of the Canaanities. According to Genesis 17:1-10, specifically verse 8, and Psalm 105:7-11, specifically verses 10 & 11, this is the Promised Land. This is God's Everlasting Covenant between Himself and the descendents of Jacob. This has not yet taken place, but it will…in the future!
5. Finally, Isaiah 13:19-20 foretells of Babylon's Final Judgment when it will be rendered desolate and uninhabitable. According to Jeremiah 50:3, 9, 39-41, this will be accomplished by nations from the north. Remember, the Medes came directly from the east to conquer Babylon in 539 BC. This was the fulfillment of Isaiah 13:17. Since Arabians have been pitching tents in Babylon for the past 2700 years, Isaiah 13:19-20 and Jeremiah 50:3, 9, 39-41 have not yet been fulfilled. But it will…in the future! “
This is from an article I kept on file, I do not have the author’s name, but the organizations name that he is from is The King Messiah Project. I am in Texas (from California) borrowing my step-fathers computer.
George
“Regarding the "Day of the LORD," A challenge to Full Preterism can be found in a small Book of the Bible, which is the Book of Obadiah. Obadiah 1:15-20 states:
(15) For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
(16) For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
(17) But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
(18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
(19) And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
(20) And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.
Obadiah 1:15-20 must be fulfilled prior to 70 A.D. or to be consistent with Full Preterism. So, usually it is said that the prophecy was completed in 583 BC, when Babylon conquered Edom.
,Obadiah 1:15-20 foretells that three things would take place that has not yet taken place in our history., the three things that would take place are as follows:
1. Obadiah 1:17 indicates that there would be deliverance for the house of Jacob, and that they would possess all the possessions of the heathen nations.
2. Obadiah 1:18 advises that the house of Jacob would literally consume the entire house of Esau, who are the Edomites. In fact, the verse clearly states that "there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau."
3. And finally, Obadiah 1:20 reveals that the children of Israel would possess "that of the Canaanites." According to Genesis 17:8 and Psalm 105:7-11,"that of the Canaanites" is the Promised Land.
In actuality, in 586 BC, only three years earlier, Israel's 70-year captivity into Babylon began as was previously foretold by the prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 25:11-12 and Jeremiah 29:10.
How could there be deliverance for the house of Jacob in 583 BC as prophesied in Obadiah 1:17 when Israel was in the beginning of their seventy-year captivity in Babylon? Also, regarding Obadiah 1:17, how could the house of Jacob possess the possessions of the heathen nations in 583 BC when they were in captivity in Babylon and it was their possessions that were being possessed? Finally, Obadiah 1:18 foretells that the house of Jacob would utterly destroy the Edomites, to a point that there would be none remaining of the house of Esau. According to many Full Preterist, it was Babylon who conquered Edom in 583 BC, not the house of Jacob. Regarding the Edomites, over 400 years after 583 BC, the Macabbees were at war with the Edomites. In fact, Herod of the New Testament was an Edomite. Even Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat proclaimed himself as an Edomite, a descendent of the house of Esau. So naturally, there are Edomites left to this very day. So, how could Obadiah 1:18 possibly be fulfilled?
Now if someone cites Malachi 1:2-4 and uses it as his proof-text that the house of Esau had been completely obliterated and wiped off the face of the earth, which some Full Preterist claim ,this is what Malachi 1:2-4 says:
(2) I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
(3) And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
(4) Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, THEY SHALL BUILD, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
The Book of Malachi was written in approximately 430 BC. And during that time, the LORD vows to Edom in Malachi 1:4 that "THEY SHALL BUILD," clearly indicating that there would be a remnant of the house of Esau after 430 BC. Taking into consideration that the Macabbees fought against the Edomites three hundred years after the Book of Malachi was written, Herod was an Edomite, and Arafat is an Edomite, it's clear that Obadiah 1:18 has not yet been fulfilled because there are some that remain of the house of Esau. This sets the stage for the house of Esau's ultimate destruction at the hands of the house of Jacob…in the future! During the last twenty minutes of our exchange, I moved to Isaiah chapter 13 which is a prophecy against Babylon on the Day of the LORD (see verses 1, 6 and 9). As most of you know, Babylon is modern-day Iraq. This chapter represents a dual prophecy against Babylon, an immediate prophecy as well as a prophecy of Final Judgment. Isaiah 13:17 foretells that the Medes would come against Babylon, and they did, in 539 BC, approximately 190 years after Isaiah wrote this chapter. In that year, the Persians and the Medes conquered the Babylonian Empire when they came directly from the east. Thus, the Medeo-Persian Empire was established and the Babylonian Empire fell. In the Final Judgment against Babylon, Isaiah 13:19-20, which states:
(19) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
(20) It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
The key that Isaiah chapter 13 is a dual prophecy lies in Isaiah 13:20, which reveals that Babylon will ultimately be destroyed to a point of being uninhabitable. Naturally, this never took place in 539 BC. In fact, Arabians have been pitching tents in Babylon for the past 2700 years. I used Isaiah 13:17, 19-20 to demonstrate that there exists an obvious gap between these two prophecies. I also demonstrated that, according to Jeremiah 50:39-41, Babylon would be left uninhabitable by people that "shall come from the north." I am reminded that, according to a map of the Middle East, the Medes came directly from the east. Regarding Babylon, Jeremiah 50:39-41 states:
(39) Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell there, and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.
(40) As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.
(41) Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation, and many kings shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jeremiah 50:3, 9 also reveals that nations from the north will make Babylon a desolate wilderness. But remember, the Medes came from the east in 539 BC, not from the north.
Since Full Preterism adheres to the position that all Scriptures were fulfilled on or before 70 AD, it must be considered baseless, invalid and without merit. We need to remember that it is not necessary to defeat the Preterist on every issue, just one single issue. Regarding the Day of the Lord in Obadiah 1:15-20 and Isaiah chapter 13, Preterists follow embrace a false position because of the following reasons:
1. Obadiah 1:17 refers to deliverance for the house of Jacob. This did not only fail to take place in 583 BC, but has not taken place up to and including the year 70 AD. Between these two time periods, the house of Jacob was under the yoke of the Babylonian Empire, the Medeo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and the Roman Empire. Therefore, no deliverence has taken place. But it will…in the future!
2. Obadiah 1:17 refers to the house of Jacob possessing the possessions of all the heathen. This also did not only fail to take place in 583 BC, but did not take place up to and including the year 70 AD, for the same reasons indicated above.
3. Obadiah 1:18 reveals that the house of Jacob would completely destroy the house of Esau, the Edomites. Don Preston's claim that this occurred in 583 BC is unsubstantiated by his own admission because, according to him, it was the Babylonians who conquered Edom at that time, not the house of Jacob. Therefore, it is only logical to assume that this will be fulfilled on a future date when the house of Jacob will utterly destroy and consume the remnant of the house of Esau (Malachi 1:2-4). And, according to Isaiah 34:5-10, it will be over the controversy of Zion (see Isaiah 34:8).
4. Obadiah 1:20 reveals that the children of Israel will possess that of the Canaanities. According to Genesis 17:1-10, specifically verse 8, and Psalm 105:7-11, specifically verses 10 & 11, this is the Promised Land. This is God's Everlasting Covenant between Himself and the descendents of Jacob. This has not yet taken place, but it will…in the future!
5. Finally, Isaiah 13:19-20 foretells of Babylon's Final Judgment when it will be rendered desolate and uninhabitable. According to Jeremiah 50:3, 9, 39-41, this will be accomplished by nations from the north. Remember, the Medes came directly from the east to conquer Babylon in 539 BC. This was the fulfillment of Isaiah 13:17. Since Arabians have been pitching tents in Babylon for the past 2700 years, Isaiah 13:19-20 and Jeremiah 50:3, 9, 39-41 have not yet been fulfilled. But it will…in the future! “
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Just some very quick thoughts George,
When one consistently looks for physical fulfillments, he or she will not see the fulfillments. Partial preterism is a system somehwere inbetween dispensationalism and full-preterism (hermeneutically speaking). Babylon has many references in Scripture and some of them refer to the physical place and some of them refer to the spiritual state like 1 Peter 5:13 for instance.
The Jews missed their Messiah because they were looking for a physical kingdom, a physical king, a physical throne and release from their physical bondage (Rome). Most have missed the second coming because they are looking for a physical resurrection and a physical coming. Not much has changed,
I still would like to know the purpose of your "final" coming and specific Scriptures (not chapters) that would match that purpose. It is not there.
When one consistently looks for physical fulfillments, he or she will not see the fulfillments. Partial preterism is a system somehwere inbetween dispensationalism and full-preterism (hermeneutically speaking). Babylon has many references in Scripture and some of them refer to the physical place and some of them refer to the spiritual state like 1 Peter 5:13 for instance.
The Jews missed their Messiah because they were looking for a physical kingdom, a physical king, a physical throne and release from their physical bondage (Rome). Most have missed the second coming because they are looking for a physical resurrection and a physical coming. Not much has changed,
I still would like to know the purpose of your "final" coming and specific Scriptures (not chapters) that would match that purpose. It is not there.
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Mellontes,Mellontes wrote:Just some very quick thoughts George,
When one consistently looks for physical fulfillments, he or she will not see the fulfillments. Partial preterism is a system somehwere inbetween dispensationalism and full-preterism (hermeneutically speaking). Babylon has many references in Scripture and some of them refer to the physical place and some of them refer to the spiritual state like 1 Peter 5:13 for instance.
The Jews missed their Messiah because they were looking for a physical kingdom, a physical king, a physical throne and release from their physical bondage (Rome). Most have missed the second coming because they are looking for a physical resurrection and a physical coming. Not much has changed,
I still would like to know the purpose of your "final" coming and specific Scriptures (not chapters) that would match that purpose. It is not there.
I am only on "the fence" over a few areas of Scripture in respect to "Full Preterism"and I already listed them. I leave room in my understanding that the "general resurrection", a possible actual 2nd Coming of Jesus at the end of the ages, and an earth that no longer has death and sin (later part of Isaiah 65). I also see most of the Revelation as cyclic, not just for the first century, but judgments extending to the culmination of all things, when the Kingdom is handed over to The Father (1Cor. 15:ff). If I am wrong and the Full Preterist is totally correct in all their estimations, I can live with that. No I do not have any perfect verse to give you that says exactly these positions, which you already know; any more then you can give perfect examples of all prophecy being filled both physical and spiritual in respect to 70 A.D.
Grace, George
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Hi George,
The reason I wanted you to define the purpose of your "final" parousia and to show Scriptures that match, is because we can define the parousia as the "end of the age" of Judaism and show the Scriptures that match, especially as they relate to the near timing of that event. I have not yet had one single partial preterist ever list the passages that he or she believes to be the "final" parousia event - and I have asked on this forum and on other forums.
I suppose the difficulty in all this is because there are varied opinions among partial preterists as to exactly which verse/passage is to be considered a "final" parousia and which is to be considered a 70 AD parousia. The verses overlap each other. Full preterists do not have this difficulty for three simple reasons: 1) it is called "THE" parousia and not "A" parousia, 2) the timing and 3) the parousia's purpose was to provide: 1) relief from persecution, 2) to provide complete redemption (the future expectation of their hope in those verses previously listed), 3) wipe out every necessary trace of the old covenant (temple, genealogies) and 4) bring judgment upon the unbelieving Jews who were responsible for crucifying the Lord Jesus and persecuting His church (filling up the measure of their sins).
Of course, I can't prove the spiritual realities of what took place (resurrection of the dead, etc) since we live in a material 3D world. But was the temple wiped off the map and has never returned? You betcha. Are there any biblical Jews existing any more? Not a chance. The main reason full-preterism is unacceptable to most is because we have been taught a physical-up-from-the-ground-and-out-of-the-cemetery type of resurrection...
Blessings, Mellontes
The reason I wanted you to define the purpose of your "final" parousia and to show Scriptures that match, is because we can define the parousia as the "end of the age" of Judaism and show the Scriptures that match, especially as they relate to the near timing of that event. I have not yet had one single partial preterist ever list the passages that he or she believes to be the "final" parousia event - and I have asked on this forum and on other forums.
I suppose the difficulty in all this is because there are varied opinions among partial preterists as to exactly which verse/passage is to be considered a "final" parousia and which is to be considered a 70 AD parousia. The verses overlap each other. Full preterists do not have this difficulty for three simple reasons: 1) it is called "THE" parousia and not "A" parousia, 2) the timing and 3) the parousia's purpose was to provide: 1) relief from persecution, 2) to provide complete redemption (the future expectation of their hope in those verses previously listed), 3) wipe out every necessary trace of the old covenant (temple, genealogies) and 4) bring judgment upon the unbelieving Jews who were responsible for crucifying the Lord Jesus and persecuting His church (filling up the measure of their sins).
Of course, I can't prove the spiritual realities of what took place (resurrection of the dead, etc) since we live in a material 3D world. But was the temple wiped off the map and has never returned? You betcha. Are there any biblical Jews existing any more? Not a chance. The main reason full-preterism is unacceptable to most is because we have been taught a physical-up-from-the-ground-and-out-of-the-cemetery type of resurrection...
Blessings, Mellontes
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
“Of course, I can't prove the spiritual realities of what took place (resurrection of the dead, etc) since we live in a material 3D world. But was the temple wiped off the map and has never returned? You betcha. Are there any biblical Jews existing any more? Not a chance. The main reason full-preterism is unacceptable to most is because we have been taught a physical-up-from-the-ground-and-out-of-the-cemetery type of resurrection...”
Nor can you prove all physical realities like Obadiah 15ff and Isaiah 65 (lamb lays down with the lion etc). The physical realities of 70 A.D. are not the argument...we agree, the physical reality of the bodily resurrection in 1 Thessalonians4:13-17 and the end result of 1Corinthians 15:20-58, and a world without sin is where we go astray.
George
Nor can you prove all physical realities like Obadiah 15ff and Isaiah 65 (lamb lays down with the lion etc). The physical realities of 70 A.D. are not the argument...we agree, the physical reality of the bodily resurrection in 1 Thessalonians4:13-17 and the end result of 1Corinthians 15:20-58, and a world without sin is where we go astray.
George
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Hi George,George wrote:“Of course, I can't prove the spiritual realities of what took place (resurrection of the dead, etc) since we live in a material 3D world. But was the temple wiped off the map and has never returned? You betcha. Are there any biblical Jews existing any more? Not a chance. The main reason full-preterism is unacceptable to most is because we have been taught a physical-up-from-the-ground-and-out-of-the-cemetery type of resurrection...”
Nor can you prove all physical realities like Obadiah 15ff and Isaiah 65 (lamb lays down with the lion etc). The physical realities of 70 A.D. are not the argument...we agree, the physical reality of the bodily resurrection in 1 Thessalonians4:13-17 and the end result of 1Corinthians 15:20-58, and a world without sin is where we go astray.
George
Why do you say the "lamb laying down with the lion" is a PHYSICAL reality? Do you understand what Paul meant in Romans 15:12 when quoting Isaiah 11:10? By the way, it is NOT the lamb lying down with the lion...
Isaiah 65:25 - The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
But to continue on, with what Paul said...
Paul had spent chapter 14 (of Romans) dealing with the friction between the saved Jews and saved Gentiles. He quoted Isaiah 11:10 (among others) as representing what had and what was taking place in his day. He was expressing to them how that it was foretold by God that Jew and Gentile would come together in one body - the body of Christ - the church. Please let me know if you agree with this understanding.
But Isaiah 11:10 talks about a time known as "in that day" which refers to and includes the glorious (and metaphorical) description of Isaiah 11:6-9 which is very similar to the Isaiah 65:25 passage. Now, if Paul quotes Isaiah 11:10 as being fulfilled in his day, then the portion of Scripture (Isaiah 11:6-9) which occurs "in that day" is by necessity also fulfilled - making it METAPHORICAL and NOT PHYSICAL...and the same thing goes for your Isaiah 65:25 passage. The new heaven and earth is not an LMPC (Literal, material, physical creation); it is the new covenant creation in Christ. Dispensationalists (and others I suppose) refuse the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:1-10 as being expressed by inspired Paul's quote of that passage in Romans 15:12 BECAUSE THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A PHYSICAL FULFILLMENT!!! In essence, they are holding to their theological system OVER THAT of Scripture. They demand a physical fulfillment and ignore any Scripture that indicates otherwise. The exact same "ignoring" is done in Acts 15:15-17 regarding the tabernacle of David as prophesied by Amos in Amos 9:11-12. This holding to a tradition in order to ignore the word of God is intolerable and is probably the same thing Christ meant when he told the Pharisees (who expected a physical kingdom, a physical leader, a physical throne, and deliverance from physical bondage - Rome):
Mark 7:6-9 - He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
I think Jesus was right...
And where exactly might I find the passage that expresses "a world without sin"? I would like to discuss that if possible.
I guess I won't be getting your purpose of the final parousia and the texts that match...but that's okay. No one has supplied them yet. One can not discuss opinions; one can only discuss Scripture...
Blessings over the holiday season and extended seasons...
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Mellontes wrote;
"Why do you say the "lamb laying down with the lion" is a PHYSICAL reality? Do you understand what Paul meant in Romans 15:12 when quoting Isaiah 11:10? By the way, it is NOT the lamb lying down with the lion..."
Christmas cards have them lying together and Isaiah 11:6-7 pretty much imply this behaviour:
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling [a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
Mellontes writes:
"Paul had spent chapter 14 (of Romans) dealing with the friction between the saved Jews and saved Gentiles. He quoted Isaiah 11:10 (among others) as representing what had and what was taking place in his day. He was expressing to them how that it was foretold by God that Jew and Gentile would come together in one body - the body of Christ - the church. Please let me know if you agree with this understanding.
But Isaiah 11:10 talks about a time known as "in that day" which refers to and includes the glorious (and metaphorical) description of Isaiah 11:6-9 which is very similar to the Isaiah 65:25 passage. Now, if Paul quotes Isaiah 11:10 as being fulfilled in his day, then the portion of Scripture (Isaiah 11:6-9) which occurs "in that day" is by necessity also fulfilled - making it METAPHORICAL and NOT PHYSICAL...and the same thing goes for your Isaiah 65:25 passage. The new heaven and earth is not an LMPC (Literal, material, physical creation); it is the new covenant creation in Christ. Dispensationalists (and others I suppose) refuse the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:1-10 as being expressed by inspired Paul's quote of that passage in Romans 15:12 BECAUSE THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A PHYSICAL FULFILLMENT!!! In essence, they are holding to their theological system OVER THAT of Scripture. They demand a physical fulfillment and ignore any Scripture that indicates otherwise. The exact same "ignoring" is done in Acts 15:15-17 regarding the tabernacle of David as prophesied by Amos in Amos 9:11-12. This holding to a tradition in order to ignore the word of God is intolerable and is probably the same thing Christ meant when he told the Pharisees (who expected a physical kingdom, a physical leader, a physical throne, and deliverance from physical bondage - Rome):
Mark 7:6-9 - He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
I do not disagree with what you quote and wrote and have used the argument myself.
Mellontes:
"And where exactly might I find the passage that expresses "a world without sin"? I would like to discuss that if possible."
Revelations 21 (especially verses 4, 8, 27) and it certainly can be gleaned from passages like 1Corinthians 15:23-26,
"23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
I do not believe the world will have sin at this point from these verses.
George
"Why do you say the "lamb laying down with the lion" is a PHYSICAL reality? Do you understand what Paul meant in Romans 15:12 when quoting Isaiah 11:10? By the way, it is NOT the lamb lying down with the lion..."
Christmas cards have them lying together and Isaiah 11:6-7 pretty much imply this behaviour:
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling [a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
Mellontes writes:
"Paul had spent chapter 14 (of Romans) dealing with the friction between the saved Jews and saved Gentiles. He quoted Isaiah 11:10 (among others) as representing what had and what was taking place in his day. He was expressing to them how that it was foretold by God that Jew and Gentile would come together in one body - the body of Christ - the church. Please let me know if you agree with this understanding.
But Isaiah 11:10 talks about a time known as "in that day" which refers to and includes the glorious (and metaphorical) description of Isaiah 11:6-9 which is very similar to the Isaiah 65:25 passage. Now, if Paul quotes Isaiah 11:10 as being fulfilled in his day, then the portion of Scripture (Isaiah 11:6-9) which occurs "in that day" is by necessity also fulfilled - making it METAPHORICAL and NOT PHYSICAL...and the same thing goes for your Isaiah 65:25 passage. The new heaven and earth is not an LMPC (Literal, material, physical creation); it is the new covenant creation in Christ. Dispensationalists (and others I suppose) refuse the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:1-10 as being expressed by inspired Paul's quote of that passage in Romans 15:12 BECAUSE THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A PHYSICAL FULFILLMENT!!! In essence, they are holding to their theological system OVER THAT of Scripture. They demand a physical fulfillment and ignore any Scripture that indicates otherwise. The exact same "ignoring" is done in Acts 15:15-17 regarding the tabernacle of David as prophesied by Amos in Amos 9:11-12. This holding to a tradition in order to ignore the word of God is intolerable and is probably the same thing Christ meant when he told the Pharisees (who expected a physical kingdom, a physical leader, a physical throne, and deliverance from physical bondage - Rome):
Mark 7:6-9 - He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
I do not disagree with what you quote and wrote and have used the argument myself.
Mellontes:
"And where exactly might I find the passage that expresses "a world without sin"? I would like to discuss that if possible."
Revelations 21 (especially verses 4, 8, 27) and it certainly can be gleaned from passages like 1Corinthians 15:23-26,
"23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
I do not believe the world will have sin at this point from these verses.
George
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
George wrote:Nor can you prove all physical realities like Obadiah 15ff and Isaiah 65 (lamb lays down with the lion etc).
Mellontes wrote:"Paul had spent chapter 14 (of Romans) dealing with the friction between the saved Jews and saved Gentiles. He quoted Isaiah 11:10 (among others) as representing what had and what was taking place in his day. He was expressing to them how that it was foretold by God that Jew and Gentile would come together in one body - the body of Christ - the church. Please let me know if you agree with this understanding.
Now, I am confused. First you state that I am not able to prove the physical realities of Isaiah 65:25 (which is basically identical to Isaiah 11) and then you say you have used the same argument to describe these events as metaphorical. Which position do you really take?George wrote: I do not disagree with what you quote and wrote and have used the argument myself.
Mellontes wrote:"And where exactly might I find the passage that expresses "a world without sin"? I would like to discuss that if possible."
George wrote:Revelations 21 (especially verses 4, 8, 27) and it certainly can be gleaned from passages like 1Corinthians 15:23-26,
"23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
George wrote:I do not believe the world will have sin at this point from these verses.
George
I am confused again. If you truly agreed with my argument concerning Romans 15:12 in association with Isaiah 11 and a close relationship to Isaiah 65:25 as having been fulfilled in Paul's day, then by necessity Isaiah 65 is also fulfilled - it speaks of the new heaven and earth and another Jerusalem, new Jerusalem. This is inferred from Isaiah 65:17-18 and a little more clearly from Revelation 21:1-2:George wrote:I leave room in my understanding that the "general resurrection", a possible actual 2nd Coming of Jesus at the end of the ages, and an earth that no longer has death and sin (latter part of Isaiah 65).
Isaiah 65:17-18 - For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Revelation 21:1-2 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Now, I can't remember if you were one of those who believed that the New Jerusalem represented the church or not, but if not, let me explain by way of some Scriptures why I believe it clearly is the church (the ecclesia, not the brick and mortar buildings, but the "in Christ" aspect):
Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Revelation 21:9-10 - And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Galatians 4:24-26 - Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Two covenants - old covenant (Law) as the shadow, new covenant (in Christ) as the fulfillment
Two Jerusalems - (old) Jerusalem, new Jerusalem
Two heaven and earths - (old) heaven and earth, new heaven and earth
Now, if you believe the New Jerusalem is the church and is to be equated with the new heaven and earth with Christians as the "new creation" (ktisis - 2 Cor 5:17) of this new heaven and earth...
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
...then by necessity you must also believe that death has passed away because of the connection with the tears being wiped away:
Revelation 21:3-4 - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Notice the similarity of Revelation 21:3-4 with the following:
Ezekiel 37:26-27 - Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 32:38 - And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Leviticus 26:11-12 - And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
And where is this eventually fulfilled? IN THE CHURCH...
2 Corinthians 6:16 - And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Anyway, back to Revelation 21:3-4...Also, if God wipes away all the tears in the new Jerusalem (as the above Revelation verses state) then by necessity Isaiah 25:8 is also fulfilled:
Isaiah 25:8 - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
And if Isaiah 25:8 is fulfilled, then by necessity so is 1 Corinthians 15:54:
1 Corinthians 15:54 - So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
We have gone full circle here. The conversion of an individual makes him part of the new creation of the heaven and earth and places him in the New Jerusalem which is from above (the heavenly Jerusalem). He is made immortal by the Gospel (2 Tim 1:10) AND he shall never die (John 5:24). He HAS BEEN RESURRECTED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE!!!
2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1 John 3:14 - We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
All I can say is "What physical fulfillments are we to wait for?" We have clearly established the OT types and shadows from Isaiah 11, 25, and 65 as not being equated with physical death and metaphorical, and the tears being metaphorical in describing the release from the old covenant bondage of the Law (Christ's yoke is light). And being in Christ we are redeemed from sin. It is Christ's righteousness alone that is seen by God. Sin, as the curse, has been removed in Christ. I don't know what more I can say regarding these matters...
From your last quote, I assume that you infer "the world" as being in relation to the planet Earth...and possibly the new heaven and earth. The curse of sin is still upon the unredeemed. Christ was made a curse for us. He takes upon Himself the sin of the world. The cure for this sin curse is readily available. However, only those who "believe" will be freed from that curse. Therefore, in Christ there is no more sin - the sin death of Adam. Christ is not concerned about our physical death; He is concerned about our separation from God and the redemptive reunion with Him.
Blessings!
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Mellontes,
I tried from the very beginning to state that I believe God’s presence (parousia) in the form of Theophanies (walking in the Garden, wrestling with Jacob, appearing as an angel to Abraham, the life of Christ) and in judgments (Old Testament and New Testament) have come and gone. Biblically in respect to the cannon of Scripture, Jesus coming in Judgment was huge in 70 A.D., but can you really say that Pompeii, was not also a judgment of God as well many other examples in history leading up to the present age (Eph.1:11, Romans 11:36)? This is why I also stated that I felt the Revelation was cyclic in respect to judgments and redemption. Was the Revelation predominantly written for the 1st Century Church? Certainly, but it implications did not stop there. This is why for me many of the Old Testament prophecies not only had fulfillment relatively close to when they were proclaimed, but also had a greater meaning in the present Kingdom age, and in the age when all things are handed over to the Father, total completion.
In the first half of Isaiah, much was prophesized of judgment against Israel. Isaiah 54-66 gave the Babylonian captives much hope for the future, it gives us hope in this present age (the “not yet”) and for me, the final age when all the physical promises are actualized, when death (spiritual and physical) is no more, as well as evil and sin. In essence I agree with your correlation of passages of O.T. prophecies, being fulfilled with the Church, judgment, New Earth and Heaven. Yet, this is not the end of the Church Age, Reign of Christ, and Kingdom Age, though it was the end of the Jewish Age and severe judgment did come upon them by the hands of the Romans. There is a final judgment, where death, Hell and unredeemed man and angels will have all that is not of God burned away, then Colossians 1:20, Romans 5:18-21 and 1Corinthians 15:20-56 (emphasis on verse 22) and etc will have their final fulfillment.
Hopefully this eases your confusion with me.
Have a meaningful Christmas,
George
I tried from the very beginning to state that I believe God’s presence (parousia) in the form of Theophanies (walking in the Garden, wrestling with Jacob, appearing as an angel to Abraham, the life of Christ) and in judgments (Old Testament and New Testament) have come and gone. Biblically in respect to the cannon of Scripture, Jesus coming in Judgment was huge in 70 A.D., but can you really say that Pompeii, was not also a judgment of God as well many other examples in history leading up to the present age (Eph.1:11, Romans 11:36)? This is why I also stated that I felt the Revelation was cyclic in respect to judgments and redemption. Was the Revelation predominantly written for the 1st Century Church? Certainly, but it implications did not stop there. This is why for me many of the Old Testament prophecies not only had fulfillment relatively close to when they were proclaimed, but also had a greater meaning in the present Kingdom age, and in the age when all things are handed over to the Father, total completion.
In the first half of Isaiah, much was prophesized of judgment against Israel. Isaiah 54-66 gave the Babylonian captives much hope for the future, it gives us hope in this present age (the “not yet”) and for me, the final age when all the physical promises are actualized, when death (spiritual and physical) is no more, as well as evil and sin. In essence I agree with your correlation of passages of O.T. prophecies, being fulfilled with the Church, judgment, New Earth and Heaven. Yet, this is not the end of the Church Age, Reign of Christ, and Kingdom Age, though it was the end of the Jewish Age and severe judgment did come upon them by the hands of the Romans. There is a final judgment, where death, Hell and unredeemed man and angels will have all that is not of God burned away, then Colossians 1:20, Romans 5:18-21 and 1Corinthians 15:20-56 (emphasis on verse 22) and etc will have their final fulfillment.
Hopefully this eases your confusion with me.
Have a meaningful Christmas,
George