1 Th 4 - 5

[Homer]

Hi Melontes,

You seem to believe the present indicative passive of "sown" and "raised" in 1 Corinthians 15:42 clinches your argument but the present tense in Greek sometimes refers to that which is future.

With reference to time, the present indicative is usually present time, but it may be other than or broader that the present time (e.g. historical present, gnomic present).
The specific uses of the present tense can be categorized into three groups: narrow-band presents, broad-band presents, and special uses. "Narrow band" means that the action is portrayed as occuring over a relatively short interval; "broad band" means that the action is portrayed as occurring over a longer time interval; "special uses" include instances that do not fit into the other two categories, especially those involving a time frame that is other than the present.

Quote from: http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gtense.html

If you go there you can learn much about the various Greek verb tenses.

You wrote:

First of all, the angels said "as ye have seen him go into heaven," but He was hidden from sight (by a cloud) wasn't He? In other words, His coming could easily be inferred as one not visible.

I believe you are not correct. They observed Jesus ascend into the cloud:

Acts 1:9-11 (New King James Version)

9. Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11. who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

You also wrote:

I am fully, 100% redeemed RIGHT NOW because Christ has become sin for me and the curse of sin HAS BEEN LIFTED (past tense) in Him. I am not waiting to "see" if I have been redeemed after I physically die. That is probably one of the biggest difference between full-preterism and partial -preterism - we have a fully, realized hope whereas most have an unrealized hope.

Correct me if I misunderstand you, but you seem to be saying that our (only?) resurrection occurs when we are "born again" (or whatever term you prefer). But Paul, who was certainly in Christ when he wrote these words, clearly anticipated, for himself, a future resurrection:

Philippians 3:8-14 (New King James Version)
8. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9. and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10. that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11. if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

God bless, Homer

[Mellontes]

Hi Melontes,

You seem to believe the present indicative passive of "sown" and "raised" in 1 Corinthians 15:42 clinches your argument but the present tense in Greek sometimes refers to that which is future.

With reference to time, the present indicative is usually present time, but it may be other than or broader that the present time (e.g. historical present, gnomic present).
The specific uses of the present tense can be categorized into three groups: narrow-band presents, broad-band presents, and special uses. "Narrow band" means that the action is portrayed as occuring over a relatively short interval; "broad band" means that the action is portrayed as occurring over a longer time interval; "special uses" include instances that do not fit into the other two categories, especially those involving a time frame that is other than the present.

Quote from: http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gtense.html

If you go there you can learn much about the various Greek verb tenses.

You wrote:

First of all, the angels said "as ye have seen him go into heaven," but He was hidden from sight (by a cloud) wasn't He? In other words, His coming could easily be inferred as one not visible.

I believe you are not correct. They observed Jesus ascend into the cloud:

Acts 1:9-11 (New King James Version)

9. Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11. who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

You also wrote:

I am fully, 100% redeemed RIGHT NOW because Christ has become sin for me and the curse of sin HAS BEEN LIFTED (past tense) in Him. I am not waiting to "see" if I have been redeemed after I physically die. That is probably one of the biggest difference between full-preterism and partial -preterism - we have a fully, realized hope whereas most have an unrealized hope.

Correct me if I misunderstand you, but you seem to be saying that our (only?) resurrection occurs when we are "born again" (or whatever term you prefer). But Paul, who was certainly in Christ when he wrote these words, clearly anticipated, for himself, a future resurrection:

Philippians 3:8-14 (New King James Version)
8. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9. and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10. that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11. if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

God bless, Homer

Hi Homer,

I went to that Greek site and could not find the present PASSIVE mentioned. Perhaps I missed it. Could you cut and paste the section that would apply to the present passive? Thanks

The whole thing about Acts 1:11 is the fact that it cannot be exegeted as a physical, bodily return. The manner is which He comes is the same in which He goes and these are action verbs having nothing to do with "state," a noun. The other thing about this verse is that the angels said in the manner in which He went into heaven, not into the cloud. Now, I would be willing to admit that we are unsure exactly what "heaven" is being referred to and nor do we know how high this cloud was. It doesn't matter a whole lot to me because I base the precedent of the day of the Lord on the nature of the previous comings from the OT. We know from Scripture (mentioned previously) that Jesus was given judgment by His father and we also know that Jesus would come in the glory of the Father. And we know how the Father came before. Therefore, I see no reason to change the precedent...

And lastly, you are absolutely correct. Paul did expect a future resurrection. But don't forget that Paul is pointing to the future parousia within the time constraints supplied by every NT writer - their generation. He had the promise by faith. It would be consummated by the parousia event bringing salvation (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:37). It is pointless for me to discuss the corporate resurrection hope of Israel. I have tried. It is not "physical" bodies that are resurrected; it is covenant bodies that are resurrected. First Adam; last Adam - body of death versus body of Christ (church)...that sort of thing. It really takes a LOT of personal study and may will not bother.

Anyway, I need a holiday so I am going to take one. You folks can discuss amongst yourselves without interruption from me. I may drop by to see what's going on, but I doubt I'll be responding for awhile.

Hope everyone has an excellent finish to the year and great beginnings in the next one. And I also hope that we were able to encourage each other in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus through our many posts.

BLESSINGS!

[Homer]

Hi Melontes,

You wrote:

I went to that Greek site and could not find the present PASSIVE mentioned. Perhaps I missed it. Could you cut and paste the section that would apply to the present passive? Thanks

Sorry for the confusion. Here is a specific example at the source I referred you to:

8. Futuristic Present

The present tense may be used to describe a future event, though it typically adds the connotations of immediacy and certainty. Most instances involve verbs whose lexical meaning involves anticipations.

a. Completely Futuristic

The present tense may describe an event that is wholly subsequent to the time of speaking, as if it were present.

John 4:25 Messiah is coming.

"Is coming" in John 4:25 plainly refers to a future event in the mind of the speaker. In the Greek it is verb-indicative-present-middle or passive-third person-singular.

And here is more info.:

7) {FUTURISTIC PRESENT

The present tense is sometimes used for confident assertions about what is going to take place in the future. The event, although it has not yet occurred, is looked upon as so certain that it is thought of as already occurring. The futuristic present is often used in prophecies. A test for this use is the ability to translate the Greek present with an English future, though the future, will not always be used in the translation.}

a) [Compare Jn 14:1-3]:

(v. 1) "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

(v. 2) In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

(v. 3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

"I will come" = "erchomai" = lit., "am coming", present, indicative.

Notice that the context indicates not a present continuous action but a future action.

Sorry to see you are leaving us. I wish before you do you could take a moment to plainly tell us whether we will be resurrected after our physical death, pass out of existance, or be a disembodied spirit. Are your beliefs about this the same as the Sadducees?

God bless, Homer

[Mellontes]

Hi Homer,

Since you responded so quickly and it is still 2009, then perhaps one more post...

I noticed that none of your "cut and paste" from that Greek site used any examples from 1 Corinthians 15 - the original passage in question...

Also, the present PASSIVE is named that way because the action is being performed upon the subject, not being performed by the subject, as that would make it an "active" tense.

Active: Jake hit the ball
Passive: Jake was being hit by the ball

It is this "passive" part which is most crucial to the text. Is "being raised" makes sense. Was "being raised" makes sense. Will "being raised" does not make sense. Shall "being raised" does not make sense. Do you see what I am getting at?

As for your resurrection question...I am already resurrected into the body of Christ and into the presence of God for HE dwells in me through the act of salvation. When I die, my physical shell shall return to earth (Genesis 3:19; Psalms 104:29; Ecclesiastes 12:7) and I shall go to a continued existence with God in another realm that I know not much about. As to what form my continued existence is to have I have no idea. I doubt that words in this realm could ever adequately explain it.

Prove all things...

[Allyn]

Hi Homer,



As for your resurrection question...I am already resurrected into the body of Christ and into the presence of God for HE dwells in me through the act of salvation. When I die, my physical shell shall return to earth (Genesis 3:19; Psalms 104:29; Ecclesiastes 12:7) and I shall go to a continued existence with God in another realm that I know not much about. As to what form my continued existence is to have I have no idea. I doubt that words in this realm could ever adequately explain it.

Prove all things...

This is my belief as well for how could it be otherwise if the resurrection of the dead (which I always use Daniel as an example of that type of participant) has happened as it should have after the abomination of desolation and then the last trump according to Scripture. Jesus' own words speak of the order being thus. Martha was given the example that the living from then on will never die even though the body dies and Rev 14 declares the blessed to be those who die from now on. Christ's parousia has happened right on time and the sleeping have been awakened.

[Homer]

Hi Melontes,

If you are still around.....

You wrote:

You will find that when you translate those verbs correctly, it is phrases like this that change things: "the dead BEING raised" - a process already happening! The resurrection of Israel was underway...but it was not physical resurrections.

As I understand you, you say the resurrection Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 15 was a process happening as he spoke. I maintain that he was speaking of a future event. If that "resurrection" occured in 70AD or is still future today, either way it was still future to Paul. Implausably, to get around this, you attempt to show that it was a process that had begun as Paul wrote and, I assume, would be completed at 70AD, thus would be a resurrection that took place over a period of about 15 years! Yet Paul, in the same passage, 1 Corinthians 15, informs us in vs. 51-52 that the resurrection he speaks of will take place "in the twinkling of an eye", which would seem a bit faster than 15 years!

Earlier I referenced the following which you seemed to have no answer for:

Luke 24:36-43 (NKJV):
36. Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37. But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39. Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” 40. When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41. But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42. So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

I have long considered the fact that He consumed food as an action He took to prove the physicality of His (and our) resurrected body. And it seems to me we have a promise of eating with Him in that future eschaton.

Again I found your explanation of Jesus' ascension strained and implausable. I am reminded of the time about 25 years ago when I began reading J. Stuart Russell's "The Parousia". I read it awhile, and although there were some interesting things in it, I soon found the book implausible and parked it on the shelf, without finishing it, where it remains.

As far as our discussion goes, it is probably just as well you are taking a vacation from posting as I do not see us getting anywhere.

God bless you! Homer