CHRISTIAN ZIONISM & ISRAEL

[kaufmannphillips]

Lazarus43 wrote:
The modern nation calling itself "Israel" is perhaps the greatest political and spiritual deception of our time.

Would you care to identify the "true Israel," Laz?

[Lazarus43]

Lazarus43 wrote:
The modern nation calling itself "Israel" is perhaps the greatest political and spiritual deception of our time.

Would you care to identify the "true Israel," Laz?

Romans 11:17-23 (New International Version)

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

The modern nation calling itself "Israel" is, at best, founded by people who share the beliefs of the branches broken off because of unbelief. True Israel is not any such thing. True faith, not unbelief, defines "true Israel."

[steve7150]

The modern nation calling itself "Israel" is, at best, founded by people who share the beliefs of the branches broken off because of unbelief. True Israel is not any such thing. True faith, not unbelief, defines "true Israel."Lazarus43






Unbelief in modern Israel seems to be a much bigger issue then unbelief in dozens of other countries like muslim countries or Hindu or Buddist or communist countries. Or even in continents like Europe which is mostly secular now yet when the word "unbelief" is combined with "jews" or "Israel" the tone of the conversation sounds different to me like in this example modern Israel was combined with the word "deception." There are negative terms and phrases used for modern Israel that are used for no other nation on earth. Why don't some of you go open up a church in Saudi Arabia or North Korea or Iran or Vietnam or China and see how it goes and then open up a church in Israel and compare what happens.

[kaufmannphillips]

Lazarus wrote:
Romans 11:17-23 (New International Version) ...

Read the whole chapter, Lazarus. Even in the diction of your apostle, Israel does not cease to be Israel, even in its disbelief (q.v., vv. 7 & 25).

There are numerous times in the narrative of the OT where Israel is unfaithful, but it is never spoken of as ceasing to be Israel. Israel may be righteous or unrighteous, but its identity is its own.

[Lazarus43]

The modern nation calling itself "Israel" is, at best, founded by people who share the beliefs of the branches broken off because of unbelief. True Israel is not any such thing. True faith, not unbelief, defines "true Israel."Lazarus43






Unbelief in modern Israel seems to be a much bigger issue then unbelief in dozens of other countries like muslim countries or Hindu or Buddist or communist countries. Or even in continents like Europe which is mostly secular now yet when the word "unbelief" is combined with "jews" or "Israel" the tone of the conversation sounds different to me like in this example modern Israel was combined with the word "deception." There are negative terms and phrases used for modern Israel that are used for no other nation on earth. Why don't some of you go open up a church in Saudi Arabia or North Korea or Iran or Vietnam or China and see how it goes and then open up a church in Israel and compare what happens.

Actually, unbelief is a great equalizer. Sharing the unbelief of branches that were broken off keeps anyone outside the Israel of God.

[Lazarus43]

Lazarus wrote:
Romans 11:17-23 (New International Version) ...

Read the whole chapter, Lazarus. Even in the diction of your apostle, Israel does not cease to be Israel, even in its disbelief (q.v., vv. 7 & 25).

There are numerous times in the narrative of the OT where Israel is unfaithful, but it is never spoken of as ceasing to be Israel. Israel may be righteous or unrighteous, but its identity is its own.

Romans 9:6 tells the truth, "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

[steve7150]

Actually, unbelief is a great equalizer. Sharing the unbelief of branches that were broken off keeps anyone outside the Israel of God.








No disagreement, just was wondering why modern Israel's unbelief attacts so much attention from non-dispensationalists. S/B no more or less important then Turkmenistan's or Uzbekastan's unbelief.

[Allyn]

Actually, unbelief is a great equalizer. Sharing the unbelief of branches that were broken off keeps anyone outside the Israel of God.








No disagreement, just was wondering why modern Israel's unbelief attacts so much attention from non-dispensationalists. S/B no more or less important then Turkmenistan's or Uzbekastan's unbelief.

Hello Steve,
Speaking for myself it is not Israel that is attracting my attention but rather the attraction to Israel by dispensationalists that gets my attention since I believe it is a false attraction and will hurt Christianity if such continues.

[kaufmannphillips]

Lazarus43 wrote:
Romans 11:17-23 (New International Version) ...

kaufmannphillips wrote:
Read the whole chapter, Lazarus. Even in the diction of your apostle, Israel does not cease to be Israel, even in its disbelief (q.v., vv. 7 & 25).

There are numerous times in the narrative of the OT where Israel is unfaithful, but it is never spoken of as ceasing to be Israel. Israel may be righteous or unrighteous, but its identity is its own.

Lazarus43 wrote:
Romans 9:6 tells the truth, "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

Read the surrounding material, Lazarus. What will you do with the diction of your apostle in Romans 9:30-10:4, 10:21, 11:25. (I will withdraw 11:7, as the Greek grammar does not yield a definite reading.)

If your apostle is not deceptive when calling these persons "Israel," then how is the modern nation deceptive when it uses the same diction?

[steve7150]

Hello Steve,
Speaking for myself it is not Israel that is attracting my attention but rather the attraction to Israel by dispensationalists that gets my attention since I believe it is a false attraction and will hurt Christianity if such continues.



OK fair enough Allyn.