Curious...

[Mellontes]

Who here believes the church is not the recipient of the promises to OT Israel?

I understand dispensationalism believes this way but am not so sure about the other "isms"...

[RICHinCHRIST]

I've never heard of any other "isms" that believe the promises were not fulfilled in Christ... maybe there are some, but I don't know of any. It's been a while since I have conversed with you Mellontes, but I'm just wondering: Do you discuss anything other than full-preterism or things pertaining to eschatology? Do you see fulfilled eschatology as the most important part of the Christian life?

[Jacob]

I'm not a dispensationalist, but I don't believe the church is neccesarily the recipient of the promises to Isreal specifically. For instance, I do believe we are the recipient of the Abrahamic covenant because it was made to him and his seed, which Paul elaborates further as being Christ, not Isreal.

I don't see how Promises like the one attached to the 5th commandment could be related to us. We have never lived in Isreal.

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you."

[Mellontes]

I'm not a dispensationalist, but I don't believe the church is neccesarily the recipient of the promises to Isreal specifically. For instance, I do believe we are the recipient of the Abrahamic covenant because it was made to him and his seed, which Paul elaborates further as being Christ, not Isreal.

I don't see how Promises like the one attached to the 5th commandment could be related to us. We have never lived in Isreal.

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you."

Perhaps my question was not very clear (and I guess it wasn't).

Dispensationalism believes that the promises given to Israel in the OT are fulfilled spiritually in the church but will one day be physically fulfilled to Israel. I guess these would have to be eschatological in nature since the fulfillment to Israel is allegedly in the future...

As a 20-year dispensationalist, I never realized why the NT quotes hundreds of OT verses and relates them to the church. I never understood why the inspired apostles would illuminate the OT with just one side of the coin (spiritual fulfillment to the church) and not explain a further physical fulfillment to Israel. I never could put two and two together to realize that the promises intended for Israel (OT Scripture) were explained as being fulfilled to the church. I must have been so steeped in tradition to not see it...once a presupposition runs your paradigm, it is very difficult to disassociate from it.

[Mellontes]

I've never heard of any other "isms" that believe the promises were not fulfilled in Christ... maybe there are some, but I don't know of any. It's been a while since I have conversed with you Mellontes, but I'm just wondering: Do you discuss anything other than full-preterism or things pertaining to eschatology? Do you see fulfilled eschatology as the most important part of the Christian life?

Living the Christian life is the most important aspect as a Christian. I guess the major difference between futurists and preterists is that preterists are living a realized hope. We believe that Christ has fulfilled all that He said He would and when He said He would. I find that most Christians are still waiting for their salvation to be completed one day - either at death or at their second coming of Jesus.

To me, how anyone can interpret Hebrews 10:37 as NOT being close at hand and with at least 2,000 years of delay (tarry) to the audience being written to in the mid 60s is amazing. But then again, I thought and believed that way for more than 20 years...

Hebrews 10:37 - For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

And this isn't even mentioning the double adverb usage (oson) that is completely missing from the KJV. It should read "a VERY, VERY little" like Young's translation.

And realizing that their are Christian scholars out there who believe that the Bible has embarrassing verses or that Jesus Christ deceived His audience and His apostles by telling them things that were not true is also amazing. For instance,

“The apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. This is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.” (Essay; “The World’s Last Night” (1960), found in The Essential C.S. Lewis, p. 385)

I honestly don't know how anyone can truly live the Christian life if they don't believe the One who is to take credit for Christianity. Having become a preterist and honoring Christ by believing WHEN the parousia was to occur and TO WHOM the judgement would be upon (apostate Israel), it was rather easy to understand the NATURE of the parousia and events associated with it. If one doesn't believe the TIMING (as reiterated by Christ and all His apostles), then how can one possibly understand the NATURE?

We have presupposed a certain NATURE (physical events - as did the Pharisees) and this incorrect NATURE has been used over and over again to discredit the clear 1st century TIMING. Everyone knows that the parousia was said to be imminent (close at hand) for the 1st century generation.

And why do I harp on this so much? Well, for me, the Bible has opened up more than ever.

The so-called "end of the world has nothing to do with our planet. It is old covenant Israel (Judaism) that was going to end. This is why Peter said the last days had arrived and he quoted Joel to prove his point. It makes a lot more sense to understand this (Peter's quote) with the end of Judaism rather than the end of the planet. There are so many verses in the New Testament that relate to eschatology than we realize. So, I guess eschatology is vitally important because the apostles spoke of it often.

[Michelle]

Hi Mellontes,

So, I guess eschatology is vitally important because the apostles spoke of it often.

It's vitally important (because the apostles spoke of it often)...how? How does it shape your life?

Well, for me, the Bible has opened up more than ever.

What is the most important message that has been opened up for you?

Living the Christian life is the most important aspect as a Christian.

How has preterism changed the way you live the Christian life?

[Mellontes]

Hi Mellontes,

So, I guess eschatology is vitally important because the apostles spoke of it often.

It's vitally important (because the apostles spoke of it often)...how? How does it shape your life?

Well, for me, the Bible has opened up more than ever.

What is the most important message that has been opened up for you?

Living the Christian life is the most important aspect as a Christian.

How has preterism changed the way you live the Christian life?

I guess I could sum up everything in bulleted points.

1) I no longer live anxiously (as I did when I was a dispie) wondering whether the Lord will return in judgment and destroy or badly damage this planet.
2) I can plan for the future (no soon return). So many times I have been told, "Why polish the brass on a sinking ship."
3) I don't have to have concern for my children wondering if they are going to go thru the tribulation.
4) Lots of other things related to an eschatology that exists in the past.

I live in peace knowing that my God is one who keeps His promises when He said He would. To me, there are no embarrassing verses in the Bible, as some clearly believe.

And a question for you, Michelle...

Why does your theology believe that His coming was NOT in a very, very little in the 1st century and why do you believe Jesus has tarried contrary to Hebrews 10:37?

[steve7150]

1) I no longer live anxiously (as I did when I was a dispie) wondering whether the Lord will return in judgment and destroy or badly damage this planet.
2) I can plan for the future (no soon return). So many times I have been told, "Why polish the brass on a sinking ship."
3) I don't have to have concern for my children wondering if they are going to go thru the tribulation.
4) Lots of other things related to an eschatology that exists in the past.

I live in peace knowing that my God is one who keeps His promises when He said He would. To me, there are no embarrassing verses in the Bible, as some clearly believe.







Same here and i'm not a preterist but it's Jesus who brings peace not preterism.

[Michelle]

Thanks for your response, Mellontes.

Your reply is...well...underwhelming. I asked you how eschatology is important to you, how it shapes your life, what is the most important message that has been opened up for you in the Bible, and how preterism changed the way you live the Christian life. Your response is, essentially, "preterism convinces me that dispensationalism is wrong, which is good, because dispensationalism was messing up my life." Your writing on this forum revolves solely around preterism - not Christ, nor his church, nor even scripture, save for those with time statements about the parousia. Preterism shapes your online life, at least in this venue.

I guess I could sum up everything in bulleted points.

Alright

1) I no longer live anxiously (as I did when I was a dispie) wondering whether the Lord will return in judgment and destroy or badly damage this planet.

I'm not a dispensationalist, yet I do believe the Lord will return in judgment one day. Why did this fill you with anxiety? I have confidence for the day of judgment because of Christ's atonement and God's love. Didn't you?

2) I can plan for the future (no soon return). So many times I have been told, "Why polish the brass on a sinking ship."

I've never once been told to not plan for the future. I've heard lots of people say they were, though, and I think it's a goofy suggestion.

3) I don't have to have concern for my children wondering if they are going to go thru the tribulation.

You don't have concern for your children?

4) Lots of other things related to an eschatology that exists in the past.

Heh. A quarter of your summary is "lots of other things..."?

I live in peace knowing that my God is one who keeps His promises when He said He would. To me, there are no embarrassing verses in the Bible, as some clearly believe.

Again, I've never had someone say that there are embarrassing verses in the Bible. You, apparently have...unless you're just guessing? I live in peace knowing that my God is one who keeps His promises when He said He would, too.

And a question for you, Michelle...

Why does your theology believe that His coming was NOT in a very, very little in the 1st century and why do you believe Jesus has tarried contrary to Hebrews 10:37?

In a very, very little in the 1st century? I believe He came big in the first century. I don't happen to believe that He came in every way in the first century. I believe Jesus tarries because He is patient on our account, in accord with 2 Peter 3.

[Mellontes]

Michelle,

I am glad that you do see the Scriptural time statements. Don't you think it is about time that you paid them some heed?

When you said, "Again, I've never had someone say that there are embarrassing verses in the Bible. You, apparently have...unless you're just guessing?" it has become painfully obvious that you do not even read my posts. I quoted a Christian scholar who said exactly that...but if one is not reading with an intent to understand, then I guess...

You and other folks have such a strong desire to discredit preterism. Why is that? We simply believe that when the apostles said His coming was at hand, we believe them. What is the big deal about that? We don't change the phrase "at hand" to mean several centuries; you folks do, and that is adamantly wrong!

And by your last answer to my specific question about Hebrews 10:37, it has become obvious that you believe in two comings: one "big" and another "in every way." I wonder how you would have understood the content of Hebrews 10:37 if you were among those in the first century when it was being read aloud in the particular fellowship you were at. Would you have thought, "Oh, this must just be "a" coming and not the real thing."?

Give me a break. I have asked several times on this board for anyone to supply with with a list of Scriptures designating a 70 AD coming with that of a yet future coming, but no one has complied and I doubt you will either. Also, where in Scripture does it equivocally state that there are TWO comings? Why would JESUS say His coming (parousia presence) would be in their first century generation and then break His word to that effect. Where does JESUS mention two different parousia events? Where do the apostles mention two different parousia events?

Where is there any precedent for a visible, bodily presence of deity in any day of the Lord mentioned anywhere in the Bible?

And I am the heretic??? Sheesh! Why do I bother trying to reach you folks with Scripture? It just gets ignored in favor of your own presuppositions and tradition...but that is to be expected if I correctly understand the principle expressed in Mark 7:9-13 ...