Eternity in heaven, or on earth?

[steve]

I received an email responding to my on-air comments today, concerning the rapture. The respondent made some interesting points upon which I had some comments to share. I will post his ideas here, followed by mine, and welcome further discussion from participants here.

His email:

Hello, Steve. I was listening to your broadcast this morning, and regarding your comments on 1Thess. 4:17, when the caller asked about the concept of the rapture, I have to say that I disagree with your conclusion. You gave a couple of illustrations from scripture to show the meaning of the word "meet", because the passage says "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Would it not also be logical to conclude that when we are "caught up" to "meet" the Lord in the air, that that could be us meeting the Lord, to then accompany Him to our home in heaven that he has prepared for those who love him? Why does it have to be the other way around?

The Bible never speaks of Jesus Christ ever setting foot on this earth again. We will meet Him in the air, and the verse continues to say "and so shall we ever be with the Lord." And the conclusion is that we will ever be with the Lord "in the air", not on earth. We will meet Him in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord---"in the air", which would be an allusion to Heaven. The passages in the book of Revelation that refer to a thousand year period are symbolic. Jesus is never going to set foot on this earth again. He accomplished everything He intended to accomplish when he died on the cross. He does not need to set up a 1,000 year reign on this earth. What would be the purpose? His kingdom is not of this world.--Jn. 18:36. Jesus has already accomplished a much greater task in the shedding of His precious blood that we all might believe on Him and through obedience to His word, be saved from our sins and have that home in Heaven. It would be anti-climactic to think that he still needs to somehow conquer the kingdoms of this earth and reign for 1,000 years on this corruptible terrestrial ball.

Ken



My response:

Hi Ken,

Thanks for writing. I don't think you and I will come to an agreement about this, but I would like to respond to some of your points.

First, I am amillennial, so I also don't believe that Jesus is coming to establish a thousand-year reign. I do believe that He is coming to establish a new heavens and new earth, however (2 Peter 3:10, 13). This does not last 1000 years, but forever (Isa.9:6, etc.).

Second, whereas you say you can find no scripture that says Jesus will set foot again on earth, I can find none that says that Christians will live forever in heaven. Our eternal destiny, with Christ, is to reign with Him on the earth (Rev.5:10). Jesus said that the meek will inherit the earth (not heaven). Christ's inheritance will be the nations, and His possession will be the ends of the earth (Ps.2:8).

Had Adam and Eve not sinned, they would have lived forever on a perfect earth. This was what God designed and intended for them (and for their offspring). God did not create humans to live in heaven, but on a perfect earth. Angels and other non-corporeal beings were apparently created to live in heaven, but humans were created with physical bodies made for life in a physical environment. The second coming of Christ will not mark the abandonment of God's original purpose, but the restoration of that purpose (Acts 3:21/ Rom.8:19-21). The New Jerusalem is not pictured as being in heaven, but, rather, descending from heaven (Rev.21:2, 10)—descending to where, if not to the earth?

That Christ (and we) are to inherit the earth (Matt.5:5), strongly suggests that Jesus will indeed be here again, as promised. The disciples were told that He was going away from them (from earth to heaven), and it was promised that He will return (from heaven to earth...or, if not, to where?)—Acts 1:11/ Luke 19:11-12, 15/ Matt.25:31/ 1 Thess.4:14).

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world" (meaning not of earthly origin, like worldly kingdoms). He did not say, "My kingdom is not in this world," because that would have contradicted His many statements affirming the presence of His kingdom on earth in His lifetime (e.g. Luke 17:20f/ Matt.12:28/ Luke 10:8-11; 16:16/ Matt.13:24,38/ Luke 13:18-19—cf. Rom.14:17/ Col.1:13/ Rev.1:5-6).

That Jesus will return to earth is the natural inference to be drawn from everything I find in scripture about His return and its sequel. On the other hand, I have never seen a passage (have you?) that teaches that the saints have an eternal home in heaven.

It is suggested that our disembodied spirits go to be with Christ, in heaven, at death (e.g., Phil.1:22-23/ 2 Cor.5:6-8/ Rev.6:9; 20:4). However, the resurrection of our bodies, at the coming of Christ, brings to an end that disembodied state (John 5:28-29/ Phil.3:21), and refits us for an earthly environment (Prov.2:21-22/ Ps.34:9-11).

To say that some passages are to be taken spiritually is something with which I can heartily agree. However, we can not pick randomly among the passages, without warrant, and say that they have a spiritual (rather than their apparent) meaning. No doubt, some passages do, but these we recognize by comparing scripture with scripture. However, there is nothing to suggest that "earth" is to be spiritualized into "heaven"— since the two are emphatically contrasted throughout scripture (e.g., Gen.1:1/ Ps.103:11/ Prov.25:3/ Eccl.5:2/ Matt.6:10, 19-20; 23:9/ John 3:12, 31/ 1 Cor.15:47/ Eph.1:10/ Heb.12:25/ Rev.5:3; 9:1; 12:4, etc.).

As I said, I don't expect for us to come to an agreement, but, just as I have provided scriptural references in support of my understanding of the case, I would be interested in seeing those upon which you base your opinion that we will live in heaven forever (I can find none).

Blessings!

Steve Gregg

[Sean]

We will meet Him in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord---"in the air", which would be an allusion to Heaven.

I'm not sure this even makes much sense. Does the prince of the power of the air (Eph 2:2) mean heaven? Are we just going to float around in our resurrection bodies?

It would be anti-climactic to think that he still needs to somehow conquer the kingdoms of this earth...

Yet Paul said He did still need to conquer kingdoms:

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

It's at least possible this is a hyper-preterist.

[steve]

That has crossed my mind.

[mikew]

Steve,

I guess I'm just finding a few of those things I especially am glad to see in your teachings -- as distinct from the general cultural beliefs.

I agree that the destination for our resurrected bodies is on earth. This is the emphasis more so than any vague ideas of remaining forever in 'heaven' and is more substantiated in scriptures. (The emphasis on resurrection is one of the few things I like about the topics Wright has covered -- Yet, I still have to read on his view on this matter.)

It appears historically that God has taken actions to preserve the world. There is a certain economy implied here in that it would otherwise have been vanity (wasted time and effort) to have created the world and then start completely over.

I think a less supported aspect here is that 'creation' is basically physical matter and existence. We were created for that physical existence. Maybe contrary to this, but heading toward refinement, is to observe that we are created beings. So our realm is amongst creation rather than abiding in God's realm --which are described analogically as 'the heavens.'

[Paidion]

Steve, I don't know what you said on your broadcast, but the Greek phrase "εις απαντησιν ", usually translated as "to meet" is not just an ordinary encounter. The phrase was used in secular Greek writings with respect to going out to meet an king who had had victory in war and was returning from war to his city. The idea was to rejoice with the king and to honour him by accompanying him back to the city.

There are two other places where the phrase "εις απαντησιν" is used in the New Testament. In each case, someone is being met, who is on his way to some destination, by those who honour him by accompanying him to his destination:

In Matthew 25:6-10, in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, the wise virgins go to meet ("εις απαντησιν") the bridegroom who is on his way to the wedding. They honour the bridegroom returning with his to the wedding.

In Acts 28:14-17, Paul, Luke, and whoever else was with them, are on their way to Rome. Some brethren from Rome come out as far as Appii Forum and Three Inns to meet ("εις απαντησιν") them. They then honour them by accompanying them back to Rome.


So in I Thessalonians 4:17, I suggest that the phrase "εις απαντησιν" is used in the same way. The conquering King Jesus is returning to earth. His disciples who will be alive on the earth at that time will be caught up to meet Him in the air. What joy that will be! Then they will accompany Him back to earth.

Now, as you know I am a historic pre-millenialist, and so I do believe when they arrive on earth, Christ will begin His thousand-year reign together with his saints. But whether preterism or pre-millenialism, the reasoning for Christ's return to the earth is the same. The point is that they shall meet the victorious Lord in the air, and accompany Him on His way to the earth.

The angel announced that He would return in a similar manner as His disciples saw Him go. It is also written that on that day "Every eye shall see Him" and that His coming will not be a "secret coming" but will be as obvious as the "lighting" [of the sun] which shines from the east to the west. It will be obvious to all!

[psimmond]

I know this is an old thread, but couldn't it be this way:

1. Christ returns with fanfare.
2. The believers (including the dead in Christ) go to meet him in the air clothed in new imperishable bodies.
[*] 1000 years?
3. After believers depart, the earth is destroyed/purified by fire. (The seas disappear Rev 21:1 and possibly the sun and moon as well Rev 21:23.)
4. The final judgment takes place - many are cast into hell at this point.
5. The New Jerusalem populated by the elect decends to the new/renewed earth.
6. The elect dwell with God on this new earth forever.

This view sees the rooms that Jesus promised his disciples he would be preparing as the new Jerusalem (currently in heaven but to be relocated later to the new earth). It also sees the earth unpopulated for a time while it is being purified/renewed--an event I think will be far more cataclysmic than the great flood in Genesis.

[RV]

The most interesting thing to me is... nobody knows.

[psimmond]

RV, you're right that it's interesting that no one knows. But I guess there are quite a few things in the Bible that we can say no one knows exactly how it works.

My reason for posting my thoughts wasn't to try to convince anyone that I know but just to see if the order of events that I proposed is feasible. There are many on this forum who I have a great deal of respect for; it's obvious they spend a great deal of time studying the Bible. So I posted it just to see if people would say "could be" or if they would poke holes in it based on certain scriptures that I'm not aware of

[steve]

I find your chronology probable.

[psimmond]

Your opinion means a lot to me Steve. Thanks for taking the time to reply.