Purgatory

[mattrose]

I haven't really studied this topic much and so, I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch. But I am always curious as to why anybody thinks that we could have a face to face meeting with Jesus and still have a rebellious bone in our body. I would think that we, as believers, would welcome that zap of instant snctification with open arms. I certainly wouldn't feel He forced it on me since I would much prefer to have this zap even now. Instant sanctification is not something that He would have to force on me.

Actually, I wasn't suggesting that I wouldn't welcome a zap if such a thing were possible. I question whether it is logically possible. Christian maturity is something we have to work on through time with the help of the Spirit. Could I be zapped with REAL maturity? I actually don't think so.

I think I will continue to mature throughout my years on earth. And I think I will continue to mature in heaven and on the new earth. Even if in heaven/new-earth I am sinless, I will still continue to grow in Christ-likeness.

[john6809]

I haven't really studies this topic much and so, I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch. But I am always curious as to why anybody thinks that we could have a face to face meeting with Jesus and still have a rebellious bone in our body. I would think that we, as believers, would welcome that zap of instant snctification with open arms. I certainly wouldn't feel He forced it on me since I would much prefer to have this zap even now. Instant sanctification is not something that He would have to force on me.

Actually, I wasn't suggesting that I wouldn't welcome a zap if such a thing were possible. I question whether it is logically possible. Christian maturity is something we have to work on through time with the help of the Spirit. Could I be zapped with REAL maturity? I actually don't think so.

I think I will continue to mature throughout my years on earth. And I think I will continue to mature in heaven and on the new earth. Even if in heaven/new-earth I am sinless, I will still continue to grow in Christ-likeness.

I certainly wasn't implying you wouldn't welcome a zap. To my way of thinking though, final maturity is sinlessness, and this level of maturity would be as close to Christlikeness as humanity was ever designed to get.

[Paidion]

Looks like I'm being coerced into a reply.

First, I'm not even sure whether heaven and gehenna ("hell") are "places" at all. I rather think they are states or conditions. When everyone is resurrected (I do not believe in postmortem pre-resurrection consciousness), I suspect their location (if there is a location) will be right here on the renewed earth.

It is God's intention that everyone become righteous; that is why Jesus died "that we might die to sin and live to righteousness." (I Peter 2:24). So when we have entered the door of salvation through repentance and baptism, we become saints (holy ones) who are on the narrow path which leads to life. We are on the road to perfection (completeness). Salvation from sin (actual sin) is a process, a work begun by God which, with our coöperation, will lead to completion.

I am persuaded of this, that the one beginning in you a good work, will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

This good work which God began, is the process of salvation from sin. The very meaning of being on the narrow path is to participate in that process. God certainly will not "zap" perfection on anyone who has not been on the narrow path, but who has lived his life for himself.

The verse is odd in its construction. One would expect it to say that the One beginning the good work will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ. But to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ? It seems to say that not only the process, but even the perfecting or completing of the process is going on right now and will continue until the day of Jesus Christ. So it has been my thought that when Christ comes he will need only to put the finishing touches on a process which has been going on throughout our lives as disciples. If this will be a "zap" in the day of Christ, it will be but a minor one. For "working together with Him" we have been on the road to perfection since our regeneration — and even this final "zap" will be with our coöperation.

If my understanding, as explained in the previous paragraph, is correct, then there will be no further need of purging needed for the saved. However, it may be that some on the narrow path have gotten off it. They are then on the wide road which leads to destruction — destruction of the evil which is within their character. Their character must change, and God will take whatever steps are necessary to do it. During that process, they will be in a state of purgatory. Indeed, the state or condition of hell itself, may be considered to be "one big purgatory". There may be no essential difference between the purging of Christ rejectors and the purging of imperfected disciples, except in matter of degree.

[mattrose]

Paidion...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

If you'd be willing, I'd be glad to learn a bit more about your position by asking a couple of technical questions.

1) You state that those truly on the narrow path only need some 'finishing touches' (a minimal 'zap') when Christ comes. What would you say about those who had only recently started down the narrow path at that time. Will they get a bigger ZAP, or will they need to be purged over a period of time?

2) So you are stating that purgatory is closer, in kind, to hell than to heaven (perhaps nearly identical to hell), correct?

[Perry]

Actually, I wasn't suggesting that I wouldn't welcome a zap if such a thing were possible. I question whether it is logically possible.

What's logically impossible about God zapping willing recipients with spirit-fu? Didn't you see the Matrix?

[Paidion]

If you'd be willing, I'd be glad to learn a bit more about your position by asking a couple of technical questions.

1) You state that those truly on the narrow path only need some 'finishing touches' (a minimal 'zap') when Christ comes. What would you say about those who had only recently started down the narrow path at that time. Will they get a bigger ZAP, or will they need to be purged over a period of time?

This question is good — except for one detail. I didn't state " that those truly on the narrow path only need some 'finishing touches' (a minimal 'zap') when Christ comes." I would never make such a statement without unequivocal Biblical evidence. It is speculation based on scripture, but still a speculative interpretation. What I did state was:

So it has been my thought that when Christ comes he will need only to put the finishing touches on a process which has been going on throughout our lives as disciples.

As you can see, I stated my THOUGHT.

As for those who die after having been on the path but a short time, I might ask a similar question about the millions, if not billions, who have never been exposed to the gospel. What about the many who have never even heard of Christ? What about the many Muslims who have been taught that Jesus was merely a good human prophet, and that Mohammed was an even better one? Many of these people have never heard anything other than the Muslim teaching concerning Jesus? What about the mentally handicapped, some of whom seem incapable of understanding the gospel?

Your question brings to mind Jesus' parable about the workers who worked for only one hour, but yet received full wages — also the "thief" on the cross whom Jesus said would be with Him in paradise. That "thief", who doubtless was no longer a thief, and who witnessed to the other malefactor, will be with Christ in paradise. Whether or not he will still need some correction, I cannot judge. I know only that God will provide for each person exactly what he or she needs.

2) So you are stating that purgatory is closer, in kind, to hell than to heaven (perhaps nearly identical to hell), correct?

I am suggesting this— because both may be states of mind in which the person in that state is being disciplined — corrected. The person still needs a measure of repentance, just as we need a daily repentance. The apostle Paul wrote, "I die daily." The more we daily repent, praise God, and become more in harmony with His will, the easier it will be on that day.

God will not be satisfied until everyone's salvation is complete. He will do whatever it takes, and will make no one any more uncomfortable than necessary.

[mattrose]

Below is a summary of a book by Jerry Walls on the subject of purgatory

Introduction

Walls sets up a 3 step proof of the need for purgatory

1. Heaven is a place of moral perfection (no sin)

2. Most, if not all, Christians die w/o having attained moral perfection

3. Some 'sanctification' will have to take place b/w death and heaven

Since #3 is essentially purgatory, most evangelicals will not be comfortable with this logic. They will either deny #1 (accept that heaven isn't quite perfect), take a hard-line on #2 (assume that some gain 'perfection' during our earthly lives and only those will ever make heaven), or insert a new #3 (God will zap believers with practical perfection just before, at, or just after death). We Protestants tend to believe that God zaps people with moral perfection at the time of death, but Walls aims to argue that some doctrine of purgatory makes better sense.

Chapter 1

He begins his non-dogmatic argument for purgatory by appraising the Scripture passages that have sometimes been used to support the doctrine. They are not very persuasive, as Walls is willing to admit. His main point in regards to Scripture is that Scripture doesn't really address the issue one way or another. He then shows the development of the doctrine through church history.

Chapter 2

Walls wants to make the point that the initial Protestant rejection of the doctrine of purgatory had more to do with how the concept had been corrupted than with the concept itself. Nevertheless, they also had problems with the doctrine itself. He examines Lutheran, Reformed, Wesleyan responses to the purgatory doctrine before describing the growing openness to such ideas in contemporary Evangelical circles.

Chapter 3

Next, Walls wants to talk about different perspectives on purgatory drawing on the historical evolution of the doctrine. First, purgatory was viewed as a means of sanctification, but then took on a role of satisfying the demands of God. It was this 'satisfaction' view of purgatory that the Reformers rejected because it went against their view that Christ had sufficiently satisfied God's demands. Interestingly, Walls claims that recent Roman Catholic writers tend toward the sanctification model which is fully combatable with Protestant theology.

Chapter 4

Here, Walls seems to be critiquing the 'zap' idea mentioned above. Can free creatures really be zapped with something? This question is even stronger in regards to something like sanctification. Sanctification takes time. God is the kind of God who desires our cooperation in the sanctification process and a 'zap' hardly entails our cooperation.

Chapter 5

Walls critiqued the protestant 'zap' theology in chapter 4. In chapter 5 he takes on the typical protestant angst against the idea of a 'second chance' after death. Why are we so against this possibility? He suggests that there is actually little 'argument' against this notion, mostly just insistence. The possibility of post-death repentance is not part of the Roman Catholic doctrine, but Walls argues that it is a logical addition.

Chapter 6

In this chapter, Walls suggests that C.S. Lewis' acceptance and nuance regarding purgatory might prove a welcoming gateway for Evangelicals to accept the doctrine. Lewis viewed purgatory as necessary for the sanctification process (avoiding the satisfaction emphasis that protestants surely won't accept). He also recognized the value of pain in the process of holiness and the importance that God places on human freedom, even after death.

Chapter 7

Walls had argued for a fresh take on purgatory, but in a non-dogmatic style. He concludes his book by making the following main points.

1. Scripture doesn't make purgatory plain, but it also doesn't rule it out. Indeed, it is a reasonable inference from what Scripture does clearly teach.

2. The sanctification model of purgatory fits with Protestant theology. Indeed, if sanctification is essential, some doctrine of purgatory may be essential.

3. Since God has set up salvation to involve our cooperation, a ZAP of perfection won't do.

4. God will continue, even after death, to do everything he can do to finish the work he started in us, making us like His Son Jesus.

My Response

I got this book because I enjoyed the author's book Hell: The Logic of Damnation. I think I like this book even better. Since I am writing my thesis on Hell, the first book was useful... but since it was at the end of my reading list, it didn't spark my theological imagination much. This book did. I am somewhat embarrassed to say I had never really thought through the issue raised in chapter 1. My theology doesn't fit very well with a 'zap' of sanctification, but I hadn't considered that this might beg the need for some form of purgatory.

What's more I very much resonated with the form of purgatory Walls came up with. I think he is exactly right that an acceptable doctrine of purgatory would be the sanctification model. I agree with his emphasis on free will and his questioning of our insistence that death must be the end of free will and the possibility of repentance. I, too, think C.S. Lewis' and his view may serve as an ecumenical gateway.

But I'm slow to change. I found myself in agreement with much of what Walls was saying, but wondering if there was a way of sneaking some of these concepts about purgatory into heaven itself. Walls briefly dealt with this suggestion, but I'd like to explore it more. Maybe I'm more open to questioning #1 (above) than Walls is. In the end, what I'd hope to land on might not be all that different from what Walls is saying. If I end up with an 'outer banks' of Heaven that includes some painful discipline, is that really any different from purgatory? If I'm against the zap, perhaps purgatory is inevitable.