John 5 and the resurrection

[Othniel]

Hey Steve (and others),
Like a great many things in eschatology, I am trying to work out where I stand on Revelation 21-22. If I am correct, I believe that you (Steve) have found that these chapters are a symbolic rendering of a literal new heaven and new earth and you believe that ruling on earth is the final destination. I also think that in accordance with this view, you interpret John 5:25-29 as referring to a future bodily resurrection of the living and the dead.

I have a question about this passage:

Firstly, I want to know your opinion about the use of figurative language in other parts of scripture (not just Revelation). Do you think it's a possibly correct hermeneutic to interpret Jesus words in some cases symbolically (like we would a parable)?

Secondly, I noticed that the context of this passage seems to be dealing with spiritual life, not necessarily physical life. In 5:21 it says that the Son "gives life to whom He will." That could be both physical and spiritual. Then He talks about Jesus as the ultimate judge in v.22. Then verse 24 reads: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." So He basically says "you've got eternal life if you believe in me, and you've already passed from the dead unto the living." In other words, if you believe Christ, you won't come under judgment because you've resurrected (1st resurrection right?). This seems clearly spiritual in context.

Jesus continues in verse 25: "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live." You mention in your lectures that you find a present sense and a future sense to this because the hour both IS and yet is also Coming. Since this verse followed verse 24 which was talking about spiritual realities, could not this verse also be speaking symbolically? He says that we were dead, but now we live because we believed. Could He not also mean here that others who are spiritually dead will hear his voice, believe, and come to life in Christ both at that time and in the future (for them)?

Then the big one comes. "the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Might this be saying "everyone who is dead will hear Jesus voice and come stand before Him in the spirit realm (in a great white throne kinda way). If they've done good, they will resurrect unto spiritual eternal life (heaven), and for those who have done evil, they will be resurrected unto spiritual eternal judgment (2nd death/Hell)." (p.s. If this is talking about heaven, I'm not sure how to take this verse in light of Romans 2 and Ephesians 2.)

In John 11:21-26, we see Martha grieving over her dead brother. Jesus said "Your brother will rise again." Martha said "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." To which Jesus responds: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." Though we might immediately think of a physical resurrection when Jesus says "your brother will rise again," it seems that he is using figurative language because he says "whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." That seems spiritual at my first glance. Could He be comforting her with a hope of heaven?

Acts 24:15 also speaks of the resurrection as a future thing, and that this will be for both the just and the unjust. But I see nothing there that would give any indication that this was something to happen at the grand second coming rather than simply at death (or whenever it is when we face the Lord).

Then there is 1 Corinthians 15. in v44 he says that though our body is sown a physical body, we will be raised a spiritual body. V46 says that things started physical but will end up spiritual. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1 cor 15:50). When v51 says that we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, rather than a second coming prophecy, this seems to me to be saying that we will not be sleeping and resting when we die, but will rather be changed into a spiritual thing that is alive and active. The twinkling of an eye could mean immediately after we die. I speculate that the trumpet could be symbolic of something meaning "your final hour," or possibly the voice of the Lord, and after this trumpet call indicating our 1st death (and only for believers), we are raised incorruptible.

Obviously we know that Jesus does raise the dead physically too (consider Lazarus,) but I'm wondering why you prefer to take this literally rather than as a spiritual reality. I would love to hear any reasons why you (as a partial preterist amillenialist) would interpret these phrases to mean physical resurrection (like zombieland) rather than something that happens when we die and stand before God in judgment. Am I mistaken in my understanding of your view? I ultimately am looking to have a coherent view of these things that is brought about by context and other scripture, not necessarily from common thought on the subject (something I know you seek for too).

Thanks for taking the time to read this! Thoughts?

[Homer]

Othniel,

Consider this:


1 John 3:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

3. Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure

We are spiritually born again now and in the future we will be resurrected and we will be like Jesus. You recall, I'm sure, that Jesus ate (real fish) with His disciples after His resurrection, the point being, I think, that he really had a physical body, the prototype of ours.

[jeremiah]

hello othniel,

...When v51 says that we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, rather than a second coming prophecy, this seems to me to be saying that we will not be sleeping and resting when we die, but will rather be changed into a spiritual thing that is alive and active.

if paul is speaking of something other than christ's second coming, wouldn't he have made a clear departure or subject change from that of v20-26.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

i think v20-23 give an adequately clear picture of the timeline for the resurrection of the dead-at the end, which i believe the rest of the chapter to be a cohesive description of this resurrection. why would you then conclude he changed the timing he laid out here? or what would you instead understand paul to be saying in the above verses?

...rather than something that happens when we die and stand before God in judgment.

do you mean immediately after death? if so where do you find that taught?

grace and peace...

[Othniel]

Both Homer and Jeremiah bring up good points.

After spending a large number of hours compiling verses on the subject in a separate document, I now understand where the majority of scholars are coming from. Here's what I think John 5 is talking about:

Jesus speaks of two things: a present state that “now is” and a coming hour. This gives us the indication that there is a double fulfillment of what Jesus is saying. In the verses present fulfillment, the follower of Christ has presently inherited eternal life. We have passed from spiritual death into spiritual life and will not be condemned because we have heard the voice of Christ. The dead spiritually are hearing and perceiving the voice of Jesus, even to this very day. When non-believers hear and understand, they will live spiritually and be born again. Jesus then speaks of an hour which is to come where Jesus is declared the judge. He empathizes with us and has earned the right to judge humanity as the Son of Man. Then Jesus explains what this final judgment will look like. He will call out those who are alive on that day and those who have already departed in a mass resurrection. In the twinkling of an eye, God will judge those who are resurrected, both believers and non-believes, and sort them out like goats and sheep, wheat and chaff. As we resurrect, those who have done good, the ones who's faith is evidenced by actions, are raised to life eternal. Those who have done evil and are shown to not have faith in Christ's work are raised to an eternal state of condemnation.

The dilemma was solved for me by recognizing that the verse has a double fulfillment.