Promise of Israel

[LOREALEATENOMENARD]

I've been reading Romans 9, 10 and 11. And I am trying to wrap my head around the promises God made to Abraham and how that correlates with the Church today. I am conflicted as up until this point, I have assumed that the promises were for the nation of Israel (as taught by my denomination). However I cannot get past the plethora of verses that talk about how those in faith in Christ, aka the gentile and the remnant jews (???) are the true inheritors of the promise.

To go with this viewpoint (as the church is the inheritor of the promise), I have a couple questions:



1. Romans 11:25-32, make it seem that in the future (our future?) God will fulfill his promise, ash His gifts are irrevocable. Also this would explain the partial hardening, and then there's the word UNTIL, which I have no idea what that means (outside of the dispensationalist viewpoint). Then it goes on to talk about how through their (Israel) disobedience they shall receive mercy. This all sounds like its leading up to a future restoration of God chosen people, the nation of Israel?

Romans 11:25-32
25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
The Liberator will come from Zion;
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
27 And this will be My covenant with them
when I take away their sins.
28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs, 29 since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable. 30 As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, 31 so they too have now disobeyed, ⌊resulting⌋ in mercy to you, so that they also now may receive mercy. 32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

[steve]

I believe God's gifts and callings are irrevocable, and that His gifts and callings are in Christ. Those in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, are called and gifted (see Rom.9:24; 6:23). God will never revoke His promises or gifts to Christ. There is no ethnic group to whom irrevocable, unconditional promises of salvation have ever been made.

I believe the word "until" means "during the whole time." The partial hardening of the Jews continues "during the whole time" that the fulness of the Gentiles are coming in. There is no prediction of the Jew, en masse, coming to Christ subsequently. Though it would be wonderful if they did so, their Jewish status would become irrelevant as soon as they came to Him, since in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile. In other words, coming to Christ would not put them in the position to receive special privileges or to cash in on promises that were associated with the Old Covenant, which is now defunct (Heb.8:13).

[Othniel]

There is no ethnic group to whom irrevocable, unconditional promises of salvation have ever been made.

I believe the word "until" means "during the whole time." The partial hardening of the Jews continues "during the whole time"

I have confirmed that the Greek word translated until (achri) has a deeper meaning. It can mean "continually until," "while," or "during," which is different from other "until"s in the Greek. The much more common word for until is heos. heos has a much more clear definition: "marking the continuance of an action up to the time of another action." Achri, on the other hand, in the way it's used in Romans 11, can indeed mean "during the whole time."

To support this, the word Achri is used in the same way in Acts 27:33: "And while the day was coming on..." (KJV). Achri is the word while and has almost the exact same conjunction as Romans 11. So if we understand Achri the same way as it's used in Acts 27, we can read Romans 11:25 in an entirely different way. In fact, when I looked up each Greek word in my "Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament," I found that there are a number of words that can have an entirely different meaning in the context they are used.

Here is my rendering from the Greek: "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a portion of Israel has become callous [or blind, hardened, etc.], until [or while] the fullness of the people [ethnos] enter in. And in this way, all of Israel shall be made whole."


I was amazed to find that the Greek word Ethnos isn't always referring to simply Gentiles, but simply means "people" or "people group," and has been used when referring to Jews (Luke 7:5; 23:2; John 11:48; Acts 10:22; etc.), Gentiles (Rom 2:14; 3:29; Gal 2:8; etc.), and even the Christian society (Matt 21:43; Rom 10:19; etc.). It could very well be referring to Gentiles, and it wouldn't affect Steve's view if it did, but it doesn't have to mean that.

So while the way many translations render this verse could be correct, it could just as correctly be translated in the way seen above. This means that rather than understanding Romans 11:25 to be referring to some future mass conversion of Jews, this could be describing how Israel is to be made whole, namely, through the Jews and the Gentiles.

This is just my rendering of the verse. I'm still trying to put the pieces together myself, but I hope this gives you something to chew on Loriel!

[JMTC]

I think it's worth considering that without the hardening of Israels heart the Gentiles could have been left out of the salvation equation. If the "mystery" described in both the old and new testament pertains to the church (first jew, then gentile converts) then a hardening would be necessary in order to make the nation,( Israel) jealous.

In terms of restoration, I believe that a number of Jews (the elect) will recognize Jesus as their Messiah most likely during His second coming and the promises made to Israel could then be achieved.

[steve7150]

In terms of restoration, I believe that a number of Jews (the elect) will recognize Jesus as their Messiah most likely during His second coming and the promises made to Israel could then be achieved.







I think the promises to Israel are not about salvation but about the nation itself being restored for God's endtime purposes. We may be seeing Psalm 83 unfolding.

[Othniel]

Here are some more things to consider Lorael:

1. Immagine for a moment that this promise was speaking ethnically, that Romans 11:25-26 were a promise to all those physically descendant from Abraham. If this were the case every person with even the smallest ounce of Jewish blood (whether they knew it or not) would be suddenly magnetized to God. According to the dispensational view, this verse also refers to the Jews coming into the land and possessing it (even though such a statement is no where to be found in the context). And though God can do whatever He wants, this kind of a mass exodus of people of a certain blood type sounds more like a sci-fi book than Biblical teaching, and doesn't seem to correspond with the way God usually does things.

The beautiful thing about Fulfillment Theology is that it shows us that God has been consistant with his dealings. He has changed some things (laws, ordinances, etc.), but only because they were a picture of what was to come and not the fullness (Heb 9 and 10). When it comes to salvation, God's unchanging nature has been shown in that He has made a way of salvation that is rooted in faith rather than genealogy. This is how it's always been, this is how it will always be.

2. I also want to give some brief reasons why I think it is actually more reasonable to understand "In this way, all Israel shall be saved" as speaking of spiritual Israel rather than Rabbinical Judaism.

Firstly, when we go back to Romans 9:27, Paul tells us that "only a remnant will be saved." If I believe Romans 11:26 to be speaking of the same Israel, I am forced to ask the question "will all Israel be saved or will it only be a remnant?" This would be a contradiction. Since I don't accept that the Bible has contradictions, I am forced to believe that they are using the word "Israel" in different ways.

Secondly, I have often heard an objection phrased something like this: "It must be speaking of the same Israel because it comes in such close proximity to the previous Israel, which is clearly ethnic Israel." This may sound compelling at an initial hearing, but I believe that when we look at the way Paul uses these terms elsewhere will give us better perspective on this argument. Romans 9:6 tells us "Not all are Israel who are of Israel." The proximity is extremely close, and yet Paul is clearly referring to two different things. I believe it is clear that Paul is trying to tell the reader that not everyone who is a descendant of Israel (Jacob) is truly Israel, but only the children of the promise, those who have the faith of Abraham, are Israel.

Therefore, it is not much of a stretch to understand Rom 11:25-26 to be describing the mystery of Jews and gentiles being a part of one body (Eph 5:32, Col 1:27), rather than a future eschalogical event for a certain culture of people God has made no promises to (to discuss promises and covenants, I encourage starting a new thread )