Hey Steve, I've got an eschatalogical question. I have been listening to your messages on Revelation 20:4-6 and I'm having a tough time understanding the Amillennial viewpoint. You referenced that the big deal in that verse is the translation of "Lived" or "Came to life." I have no problem with your conclusion that it could be interpreted "Lived."
Here's the thing, I can't seem to get the big picture into my head. Though I have come to see many flaws in premillennialism, I can see how they would understand the beheaded guys coming back to life with everyone else and reigning. I can also understand that the 1st resurrection can mean our resurrection unto life when we come to Christ. But how does that correlate with those dead people?
If those beheaded guys came to life spiritually, were they beheaded spiritually? If they are alive in heaven, does that make the Millennium a heavenly state rather than a present spiritual state among believers? Who was sitting on the throne and what were they judging? Are you saying that the martyrs died, but then went to heaven as the meaning of them reigning? If so, what are the implications of the correlation between these martyrs and the ones mentioned previously under the throne.
I hope these questions make sense. I guess I'd just like a timeline or something explaining whats really happening here. When I read your commentary on the topic in your book, it doesn't paint a clear picture of whats happening but rather only supports a couple of interpretive choices without explaining their coherence.
Thanks for taking the time to read this bud, Be blessed!
Tyler
A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
[color=#FF4000][i]Allowing yourself to be corrected is a sign of maturity. Don't fear information, just test it.[/i][/color]
Re: A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
A couple of interpretive choices may be what we have to settle for—on this and many other biblical issues. However, I can give you my opinion:
The souls of the martyrs are seen under the throne in chapter six (the fifth seal), and they are the same people (with others added, as predicted in 6:11) who are seen reigning with Christ in 20:4-6. The imagery changes, though it is not certain that their circumstances do. It is possible that, in 6:10-11, they are impatiently awaiting their vindication (in the judgment on Jerusalem, their persecutors), whereas, in chapter 20, their circumstances after AD70 are in view. I don't know this to be the case, and it affects little for me.
The Church Age is the time of "the first resurrection" (spiritual rebirth, spoken of in John 5:24), and it ends with the "second resurrection" (the emptying of the graves, spoken of in John 5:28-29). The vision focuses on the state of the martyrs during the present age. Though they have physically been killed ("beheaded" is the imagery of choice), yet, as John sees, they continue to "live according to God in the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6).
Verses 4-6, therefore provide the following information:
—During the present life, people who believe are experiencing the first resurrection (rebirth), passing from death to life;
—Those who are not believers do not live again until the judgment at the end of the age;
—In the meantime, believers continue to face persecution and martyrdom;
—Yet, those who die in the faith "live-on" in heaven until the end of the age, at which time their bodies are raised.
—Those who have gone on to heaven, in the interim, share with Christ in His present reign.
I think I probably made these points in my lectures on the subject (I haven't heard the lectures in over a decade), and you said you did not find the lectures clear, so you might not find this explanation clear either.
However, you needn't depend on any explanations from me. I had to sort it out for myself, I am confident that you can do so as well. Though it took me a few years to do so, I hope it may not take as long for you. If it does, be patient. Immediate understanding is not essential.
The souls of the martyrs are seen under the throne in chapter six (the fifth seal), and they are the same people (with others added, as predicted in 6:11) who are seen reigning with Christ in 20:4-6. The imagery changes, though it is not certain that their circumstances do. It is possible that, in 6:10-11, they are impatiently awaiting their vindication (in the judgment on Jerusalem, their persecutors), whereas, in chapter 20, their circumstances after AD70 are in view. I don't know this to be the case, and it affects little for me.
The Church Age is the time of "the first resurrection" (spiritual rebirth, spoken of in John 5:24), and it ends with the "second resurrection" (the emptying of the graves, spoken of in John 5:28-29). The vision focuses on the state of the martyrs during the present age. Though they have physically been killed ("beheaded" is the imagery of choice), yet, as John sees, they continue to "live according to God in the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6).
Verses 4-6, therefore provide the following information:
—During the present life, people who believe are experiencing the first resurrection (rebirth), passing from death to life;
—Those who are not believers do not live again until the judgment at the end of the age;
—In the meantime, believers continue to face persecution and martyrdom;
—Yet, those who die in the faith "live-on" in heaven until the end of the age, at which time their bodies are raised.
—Those who have gone on to heaven, in the interim, share with Christ in His present reign.
I think I probably made these points in my lectures on the subject (I haven't heard the lectures in over a decade), and you said you did not find the lectures clear, so you might not find this explanation clear either.
However, you needn't depend on any explanations from me. I had to sort it out for myself, I am confident that you can do so as well. Though it took me a few years to do so, I hope it may not take as long for you. If it does, be patient. Immediate understanding is not essential.
Re: A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
Thanks for your reply Steve!
I hope it doesn't take me years to figure this out haha. I've been studying the topic intensely for at least a month straight. I hold the topic loosely as a non-essential and am totally cool with differences of opinion, however, after the destruction of my quazi-dispensational views, I would like to study the topic until I can get a reasonable overall picture. And though I understand that a topic of this magnitude takes grip loads of time to fully wrap our minds around due to the myriad of information necessary for a correct interpretation, but as someone who studies systematic theology in my free time, I really want to understand these verses. For the most part, I find the reasoning in your lectures very well put and well thought out. Your presentation of the different verses used to support the different views, as well as their refutation, has been enlightening. But despite the vast amount of time and energy I have put into understanding the different views as I formulate my opinion, I still have a long way to go.
Coming from a futurist understanding, shifting over to partial preterism has meant an entire re-work of how I've understood much of scripture. This study has had effects on my understanding of the Old Testament prophets, the fulfillment of O.T. promises, the role of the Kingdom of God and Christ's Lordship in the gospel, my thoughts on proper hermeneutic principals among many many more things. I thought that I had a pretty good grasp of most of the Bible, but this study has caused me to re-examine many things I thought to be sure. Praise the Lord that I now am looking at things a little more objectively, thoughtfully, and rationally. I don't believe that information is my idol, but for the sake of those I instruct, I want to be as studious as possible. I take my role as a Bible teacher very seriously and would hate to lead others astray simply because I was taught incorrectly or because I wrongly assumed an interpretation before taking proper time for observation. This means that I have been trying to test everything I hear and read against other scripture. I thank God that you have so many wonderful materials that can help me work through the multitude of information. I am going through your lecture notes, lectures, your book, and a couple of other lesser resources to help my understanding. It's taking me a long time because I'm looking up almost every verse you reference in your book and am taking notes on where I feel the verses lead me. I hope my occasional question will not be burdensome to you.
Back to Revelation 20 though, as I try and piece this together, I'd love to hear your thoughts on my following explanation. Could you tell me if my following explanation of the passage is in line with what you are teaching?
The thrones in v.4 are likely the same ones the 24 elders sat on in an earlier chapter. The judgment that was committed to these elders may somehow correlate to the fact that their thrones surround God's throne, the judgment seat of Christ (or White throne of Judgment?). Somehow God decided that these Elders, whomever they are, should take part in the judgment. The disembodied souls are the martyred saints (the same ones who were under the alter in Rev 6:9). They are clearly in heaven do to the presence of the thrones and the fact that they don't yet have bodies. This also proves to us that this is referring to a time period before the ultimate bodily resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous (because they would have had bodies otherwise). The fact that they did not accept the mark of the beast indicates that they chose instead to be sealed and branded as a child of God. The beast (though elsewhere identified as the papery), can be seen as any opposition to Christ (the spirit of antichrist) and so this mark doesn't need to refer to people suffering under the rule of the pope (though could it?).
So chronologically these people (decapitated martyrs) accepted Christ, took part in the 1st resurrection unto life (salvation), then suffered under the beast unto death do to their defiance (or suffered from some Christ opposing force), and lived with Christ in the spiritual realm (3rd heaven) where they now reign with Christ. This verse is primarily dealing with the situation of saints already dead physically, and doesn't directly indicate anything about the situation of the living saints who have not yet died. So these souls reigned with Jesus before the final physical resurrection day. They are a part of God's Kingdom and rule with Christ in heaven because they already experienced the 1st resurrection. All those who partake of this resurrection will experience this reigning with Christ, but it doesn't require physical death. We know this from other parts of scripture where we compare the Millennium with the Kingdom of God. However, in this verse, it is only describing the situation of those who passed on (What's the difference between how they are reigning from heaven in the Millennium age and how we are reigning with Christ in the Millennium on earth? What verses clarify this? The Millennium is equated with the Kingdom of God in your opinion right?).
In the end, there will be a 2nd resurrection. A physical resurrection unto life in a new body for those who are in Christ, and a physical resurrection unto eternal death for those who are not in Christ. Dead Christians live right now in heaven while those who are dead non-believers are awaiting the second resurrection (2nd death. Where are they now? Gehenna?) The second death has no power over the 1st resurrection because God has saved us from death through the Cross. Those who are of the 1st resurrection will reign with Christ for an undefined very lengthy period of time known as the Millennium/Kingdom of God/Church Age.
This is super complex for me for some reason. I hope that the above section made some sense. What's throwing me off is where the reigning takes place. Is it in heaven presently or on earth presently? Or both? It's the chronology that I'm struggling with because I had thought that when we spoke of the Millennium, we were referring to something that we as believers were actually a part of right now, not something that we would be a part of when we die. But this verse seems to indicate that the disembodied souls were the ones that reigned in heaven rather than us reigning on earth in a spiritual sense.
I can understand if you don't want to explain, I just want to try and comprehend the picture.
Thanks for taking the time to even read these questions bud!
I hope it doesn't take me years to figure this out haha. I've been studying the topic intensely for at least a month straight. I hold the topic loosely as a non-essential and am totally cool with differences of opinion, however, after the destruction of my quazi-dispensational views, I would like to study the topic until I can get a reasonable overall picture. And though I understand that a topic of this magnitude takes grip loads of time to fully wrap our minds around due to the myriad of information necessary for a correct interpretation, but as someone who studies systematic theology in my free time, I really want to understand these verses. For the most part, I find the reasoning in your lectures very well put and well thought out. Your presentation of the different verses used to support the different views, as well as their refutation, has been enlightening. But despite the vast amount of time and energy I have put into understanding the different views as I formulate my opinion, I still have a long way to go.
Coming from a futurist understanding, shifting over to partial preterism has meant an entire re-work of how I've understood much of scripture. This study has had effects on my understanding of the Old Testament prophets, the fulfillment of O.T. promises, the role of the Kingdom of God and Christ's Lordship in the gospel, my thoughts on proper hermeneutic principals among many many more things. I thought that I had a pretty good grasp of most of the Bible, but this study has caused me to re-examine many things I thought to be sure. Praise the Lord that I now am looking at things a little more objectively, thoughtfully, and rationally. I don't believe that information is my idol, but for the sake of those I instruct, I want to be as studious as possible. I take my role as a Bible teacher very seriously and would hate to lead others astray simply because I was taught incorrectly or because I wrongly assumed an interpretation before taking proper time for observation. This means that I have been trying to test everything I hear and read against other scripture. I thank God that you have so many wonderful materials that can help me work through the multitude of information. I am going through your lecture notes, lectures, your book, and a couple of other lesser resources to help my understanding. It's taking me a long time because I'm looking up almost every verse you reference in your book and am taking notes on where I feel the verses lead me. I hope my occasional question will not be burdensome to you.
Back to Revelation 20 though, as I try and piece this together, I'd love to hear your thoughts on my following explanation. Could you tell me if my following explanation of the passage is in line with what you are teaching?
The thrones in v.4 are likely the same ones the 24 elders sat on in an earlier chapter. The judgment that was committed to these elders may somehow correlate to the fact that their thrones surround God's throne, the judgment seat of Christ (or White throne of Judgment?). Somehow God decided that these Elders, whomever they are, should take part in the judgment. The disembodied souls are the martyred saints (the same ones who were under the alter in Rev 6:9). They are clearly in heaven do to the presence of the thrones and the fact that they don't yet have bodies. This also proves to us that this is referring to a time period before the ultimate bodily resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous (because they would have had bodies otherwise). The fact that they did not accept the mark of the beast indicates that they chose instead to be sealed and branded as a child of God. The beast (though elsewhere identified as the papery), can be seen as any opposition to Christ (the spirit of antichrist) and so this mark doesn't need to refer to people suffering under the rule of the pope (though could it?).
So chronologically these people (decapitated martyrs) accepted Christ, took part in the 1st resurrection unto life (salvation), then suffered under the beast unto death do to their defiance (or suffered from some Christ opposing force), and lived with Christ in the spiritual realm (3rd heaven) where they now reign with Christ. This verse is primarily dealing with the situation of saints already dead physically, and doesn't directly indicate anything about the situation of the living saints who have not yet died. So these souls reigned with Jesus before the final physical resurrection day. They are a part of God's Kingdom and rule with Christ in heaven because they already experienced the 1st resurrection. All those who partake of this resurrection will experience this reigning with Christ, but it doesn't require physical death. We know this from other parts of scripture where we compare the Millennium with the Kingdom of God. However, in this verse, it is only describing the situation of those who passed on (What's the difference between how they are reigning from heaven in the Millennium age and how we are reigning with Christ in the Millennium on earth? What verses clarify this? The Millennium is equated with the Kingdom of God in your opinion right?).
In the end, there will be a 2nd resurrection. A physical resurrection unto life in a new body for those who are in Christ, and a physical resurrection unto eternal death for those who are not in Christ. Dead Christians live right now in heaven while those who are dead non-believers are awaiting the second resurrection (2nd death. Where are they now? Gehenna?) The second death has no power over the 1st resurrection because God has saved us from death through the Cross. Those who are of the 1st resurrection will reign with Christ for an undefined very lengthy period of time known as the Millennium/Kingdom of God/Church Age.
This is super complex for me for some reason. I hope that the above section made some sense. What's throwing me off is where the reigning takes place. Is it in heaven presently or on earth presently? Or both? It's the chronology that I'm struggling with because I had thought that when we spoke of the Millennium, we were referring to something that we as believers were actually a part of right now, not something that we would be a part of when we die. But this verse seems to indicate that the disembodied souls were the ones that reigned in heaven rather than us reigning on earth in a spiritual sense.
I can understand if you don't want to explain, I just want to try and comprehend the picture.
Thanks for taking the time to even read these questions bud!
[color=#FF4000][i]Allowing yourself to be corrected is a sign of maturity. Don't fear information, just test it.[/i][/color]
Re: A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
Othniel,
Here are my two cents. I had to chuckle at your title ("a simple question"). Revelation 20 looks so simple on the surface, the closer you look at it, however, the more complex one realizes it really is. Anyway I am not a full preterist but I am pretty close. I believe the Second Coming happnened at AD 70 and that that was the beginning of the millennium (This was JS Russell's position). A full pret would say AD 70 was the end of the millennium (they have to have all prophecy fulfilled by AD 70). Notice that one of the groups that comes alive at the beginning of the millennium had been killed for not taking the mark of the beast. This speaks of a post-tribulational (i.e., post AD 70) beginning of the millennium (see Rev. 13 esp. vv 11-18). I believe the sequence of Rev. 19-20 parallels that of Daniel 7:21-22. (God comes and defeats the Antichrist and then the saints possess the kingdom as the millennium begins). This is something (from volume II of my book) on who participates in the millennial reign and where it takes place.
WHO PARTICIPATES IN THE MILLENNIAL REIGN?
Looking at Revelation 20:4, the first question to answer is how many groups does John see entering into the “thousand-year” reign?
Ladd writes the following on the question of how many groups John sees in Revelation 20:4:
I believe that Ladd is correct—there are two groups (who together represent all the saints) shown in Revelation 20:4. Some of the considerations that make me think that those who reign with Christ for the millennium represent all of God’s people and not just martyrs are the following:
What is being shown in Revelation 20:4 is what Daniel describes as (all) the saints possessing the kingdom. In Daniel 7:9-11 Daniel sees thrones put in place at the AD 70 defeat of the little eleventh horn as the saints possess the kingdom (cf. Dan. 7:21-27). In Luke 22:29-30 Jesus told his disciples that when the kingdom came in full power at his Second Coming, they would sit on thrones judging Israel. “And I bestow upon you a kingdom just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rev. 3:21). This privilege of judging (which is what those who come alive for the millennium have, Rev. 20:4) is extended beyond the disciples to all the saints in 1 Corinthians 6:2: “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?” Similarly, in 2 Timothy 2:12 it is believers in general (not just martyrs) who are told they will reign with Jesus: “If we endure, we shall also reign with him.” This is what those in Revelation 20:4 do: “. . . and they lived and reigned with him a thousand years.”
The participation of all believers in the kingdom reign at the AD 70 Second Coming is also shown in the parable of the minas. (Note how Jesus is letting his followers know that the full kingdom reign would not begin till his return at AD 70.)
In this parable, all the faithful servants participate in the king’s reign. Again, it is at the return of the nobleman that this reign fully begins (cf. Matt. 25:31ff).[16] The kingdom of God was fully established in heaven at Jesus’ ascension (Rev. 12:1-12, the time when the nobleman received his kingdom; cf. Dan. 7:13-14; Matt. 28:18). The kingdom of God was fully established in the earthly realm at Jesus’ Second Coming (the time of the return of the nobleman, cf. Dan. 7:21-22; Rev. 11:15-18). Note the destruction of the subjects who did not want the nobleman to reign over them (vv. 14, 27; cf. John 19:15); this refers to the AD 70 destruction of the Jews. This was the time of the coming of God and the full establishment of his kingdom. The “sons of the kingdom” were to be cast out at this time (Matt. 8:11-12; cf. 21:33-45; 22:1-10).
Given all the references to the whole body of believers reigning with Jesus, I believe that those who reign with him in the millennium represent all the saints—dead and living—and include those who have believed since AD 70. As to the question of where the thrones are located (in heaven or on earth), Revelation 20 is speaking of spiritual authority, not physical location. When Paul said that the Ephesians were seated with Christ “in the heavenly places” (Eph. 2:6), he was speaking of their authority in Christ, not their location. They were not literally seated in heaven. Thus, for living believers our location is on earth; for dead believers their location is in heaven. While the locations are different, the authority is the same; it is a spiritual authority.
The Antichrist and the Second Coming: A Preterist Examination, volume II, The Book of Revelation, 405-8
Endnotes:
12. Gentry has changed his position on the timing of Rev. 20:4. He used to see it as speaking of AD 30; he now sees it as speaking of AD 70. For his discussion of this see Navigating the Book of Revelation, 157-65. He writes,
13. Some say there are three groups shown here. Consider the New American Standard Bible translation of Rev. 20:4:
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4 NASB
With this translation some see a third group that refers to living believers who didn’t take the mark of the beast. This seems unlikely, however, as most of those who didn’t take the beast’s mark (at least those dwelling in the land of Israel) would be killed (Rev. 13:15). See Mounce, Book of Revelation, 365-66.
14. Dead believers would be participating in the millennial reign from heaven.
15. Ladd, Commentary on the Revelation of John, 263.
16. Futurists often jump on the fact that the nobleman took a long journey into a far country as meaning that the Second Coming could not have happened at AD 70. It is true that the nobleman’s journey took a long time, but he returned to the same generation he left, not thousands of years later! A forty-year timeframe from when Jesus left to when he returned fits this parable perfectly. By the way, there is essentially the same parable of servants who were given money in Matt. 25:14-29. In that parable the wicked servant who hid his talent is “cast into outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30). This reinforces my point that the soteriological condition of those who participate in the millennium (of being immune from the second death) speaks of an AD 70 beginning of the millennium.
17. Ladd, Commentary on the Revelation of John, 265.
Here are my two cents. I had to chuckle at your title ("a simple question"). Revelation 20 looks so simple on the surface, the closer you look at it, however, the more complex one realizes it really is. Anyway I am not a full preterist but I am pretty close. I believe the Second Coming happnened at AD 70 and that that was the beginning of the millennium (This was JS Russell's position). A full pret would say AD 70 was the end of the millennium (they have to have all prophecy fulfilled by AD 70). Notice that one of the groups that comes alive at the beginning of the millennium had been killed for not taking the mark of the beast. This speaks of a post-tribulational (i.e., post AD 70) beginning of the millennium (see Rev. 13 esp. vv 11-18). I believe the sequence of Rev. 19-20 parallels that of Daniel 7:21-22. (God comes and defeats the Antichrist and then the saints possess the kingdom as the millennium begins). This is something (from volume II of my book) on who participates in the millennial reign and where it takes place.
WHO PARTICIPATES IN THE MILLENNIAL REIGN?
Looking at Revelation 20:4, the first question to answer is how many groups does John see entering into the “thousand-year” reign?
Some say there is one group here that is made up of martyrs.[12] I see two groups being shown—living believers and the martyrs of the beast.[13] The first group (those on the thrones) represents the saints in general, while the second group (the souls of those killed by the beast) represents the martyrs. John devotes a good deal of time in Revelation warning against worshiping the beast (Rev. 11:7; 13:1ff; 14:9-12; 16:1-2) and telling those who are faithful unto death that they will be rewarded (Rev. 2:10-11; 7:9-17; 12:11; 15:1-4). God is making special mention of the martyrs of the beast to make it perfectly clear that those who stayed faithful unto death would not miss out on Christ’s soon-coming reign.[14]And I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witnesses to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Ladd writes the following on the question of how many groups John sees in Revelation 20:4:
This is a very difficult verse. The question is: How many groups does John see? Many interpreters recognize only one group and limit this “first resurrection” to the martyrs, maintaining that God has some special blessing for those who have died because of their faithful witness to Jesus. However, the RSV correctly reflects the Greek idiom, which could be literally translated: “And I saw thrones, and [people] sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those who had been beheaded . . . .” The language suggests two different groups: one group to whom judgment was given, and a smaller group who are the martyrs of the great tribulation. In Greek, the language is quite ungrammatical, which leads R. H. Charles (The Revelation of St. John II, New York: Scribners, 1920, 182) to treat the first phrase as a gloss. However, it may well be that John actually envisaged two groups: a larger group of all the saints and then a smaller group—the martyrs—whom he singles out for special attention.[15] (brackets in original)
I believe that Ladd is correct—there are two groups (who together represent all the saints) shown in Revelation 20:4. Some of the considerations that make me think that those who reign with Christ for the millennium represent all of God’s people and not just martyrs are the following:
What is being shown in Revelation 20:4 is what Daniel describes as (all) the saints possessing the kingdom. In Daniel 7:9-11 Daniel sees thrones put in place at the AD 70 defeat of the little eleventh horn as the saints possess the kingdom (cf. Dan. 7:21-27). In Luke 22:29-30 Jesus told his disciples that when the kingdom came in full power at his Second Coming, they would sit on thrones judging Israel. “And I bestow upon you a kingdom just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rev. 3:21). This privilege of judging (which is what those who come alive for the millennium have, Rev. 20:4) is extended beyond the disciples to all the saints in 1 Corinthians 6:2: “Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?” Similarly, in 2 Timothy 2:12 it is believers in general (not just martyrs) who are told they will reign with Jesus: “If we endure, we shall also reign with him.” This is what those in Revelation 20:4 do: “. . . and they lived and reigned with him a thousand years.”
The participation of all believers in the kingdom reign at the AD 70 Second Coming is also shown in the parable of the minas. (Note how Jesus is letting his followers know that the full kingdom reign would not begin till his return at AD 70.)
Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’ And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ And he said to him, ‘Well done good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ And the second came, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’ Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him and give it to him who has ten minas.’ (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given: and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. But bring those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.”
Luke 19:11-27
In this parable, all the faithful servants participate in the king’s reign. Again, it is at the return of the nobleman that this reign fully begins (cf. Matt. 25:31ff).[16] The kingdom of God was fully established in heaven at Jesus’ ascension (Rev. 12:1-12, the time when the nobleman received his kingdom; cf. Dan. 7:13-14; Matt. 28:18). The kingdom of God was fully established in the earthly realm at Jesus’ Second Coming (the time of the return of the nobleman, cf. Dan. 7:21-22; Rev. 11:15-18). Note the destruction of the subjects who did not want the nobleman to reign over them (vv. 14, 27; cf. John 19:15); this refers to the AD 70 destruction of the Jews. This was the time of the coming of God and the full establishment of his kingdom. The “sons of the kingdom” were to be cast out at this time (Matt. 8:11-12; cf. 21:33-45; 22:1-10).
Given all the references to the whole body of believers reigning with Jesus, I believe that those who reign with him in the millennium represent all the saints—dead and living—and include those who have believed since AD 70. As to the question of where the thrones are located (in heaven or on earth), Revelation 20 is speaking of spiritual authority, not physical location. When Paul said that the Ephesians were seated with Christ “in the heavenly places” (Eph. 2:6), he was speaking of their authority in Christ, not their location. They were not literally seated in heaven. Thus, for living believers our location is on earth; for dead believers their location is in heaven. While the locations are different, the authority is the same; it is a spiritual authority.
The Antichrist and the Second Coming: A Preterist Examination, volume II, The Book of Revelation, 405-8
Endnotes:
12. Gentry has changed his position on the timing of Rev. 20:4. He used to see it as speaking of AD 30; he now sees it as speaking of AD 70. For his discussion of this see Navigating the Book of Revelation, 157-65. He writes,
Previously I held that this [Rev. 20:4] presents two separate groups, martyrs and confessors, which themselves represent all Christians in history, dead or living. As such I originally thought these groups portray the whole Christian church throughout the Christian era. I now believe that John envisions only one group: deceased martyrs who did not worship the beast. The phrase “and those” in Greek is: kai oitines. This is a relative pronoun clause: kai = “and” and hostis derives from the root of hoitines (“which, who”). This relative pronoun clause can go either way. It can sometimes separate two ideas; at other times it can further explicate one idea. That is, grammatically it can refer either to one group or to two. Which is it here? Scholars are divided. Ibid., 161 (emphasis in original).
13. Some say there are three groups shown here. Consider the New American Standard Bible translation of Rev. 20:4:
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4 NASB
With this translation some see a third group that refers to living believers who didn’t take the mark of the beast. This seems unlikely, however, as most of those who didn’t take the beast’s mark (at least those dwelling in the land of Israel) would be killed (Rev. 13:15). See Mounce, Book of Revelation, 365-66.
14. Dead believers would be participating in the millennial reign from heaven.
15. Ladd, Commentary on the Revelation of John, 263.
16. Futurists often jump on the fact that the nobleman took a long journey into a far country as meaning that the Second Coming could not have happened at AD 70. It is true that the nobleman’s journey took a long time, but he returned to the same generation he left, not thousands of years later! A forty-year timeframe from when Jesus left to when he returned fits this parable perfectly. By the way, there is essentially the same parable of servants who were given money in Matt. 25:14-29. In that parable the wicked servant who hid his talent is “cast into outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30). This reinforces my point that the soteriological condition of those who participate in the millennium (of being immune from the second death) speaks of an AD 70 beginning of the millennium.
17. Ladd, Commentary on the Revelation of John, 265.
Re: A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
Alright!
So I think I have a better understanding. After a few months of mulling it over while searching the scripture and viewpoints of different people on the prominent themes of Eschatology, I have a better understanding of the Amil stance.
Steve, I think the reason I couldn't quite understand the Amil viewpoint at first was because I still couldn't remove the Dispensational view of the Millennium out of my mind. Having been trained so long and so adamantly in the Pre-Millennial standpoint, I was trying to fit the Amillennial viewpoint (Heavenly state of believers) with my literal lenses. It wasn't clicking for some reason.
I now understand your lectures and your above post much better and find that I agree with it more so than other interpretations. The one thing I am still hashing out in my mind is the final resurrection of the living and the dead, although I have no doubt that it will be revealed with a more thorough scriptural investigation (and time).
As I continue in my time consuming investigation, I hope that coherence comes as I investigate each verse and build a greater understanding of prophecy (and scripture) as a whole.
Thanks again all for your thorough responses!
So I think I have a better understanding. After a few months of mulling it over while searching the scripture and viewpoints of different people on the prominent themes of Eschatology, I have a better understanding of the Amil stance.
Steve, I think the reason I couldn't quite understand the Amil viewpoint at first was because I still couldn't remove the Dispensational view of the Millennium out of my mind. Having been trained so long and so adamantly in the Pre-Millennial standpoint, I was trying to fit the Amillennial viewpoint (Heavenly state of believers) with my literal lenses. It wasn't clicking for some reason.
I now understand your lectures and your above post much better and find that I agree with it more so than other interpretations. The one thing I am still hashing out in my mind is the final resurrection of the living and the dead, although I have no doubt that it will be revealed with a more thorough scriptural investigation (and time).
As I continue in my time consuming investigation, I hope that coherence comes as I investigate each verse and build a greater understanding of prophecy (and scripture) as a whole.
Thanks again all for your thorough responses!
[color=#FF4000][i]Allowing yourself to be corrected is a sign of maturity. Don't fear information, just test it.[/i][/color]
Re: A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
Welcome to the club! This shift in escatalogical perspective has led to a similar re-evaluation of many assumptions for me as well. My wife and I were discussing this on a recent walk. If you were to hand the Bible to someone who had never seen it before, probably the most obvious thing that would strike them, upon the most cursory examination, would be that it is divided into two distinct parts. There's this Old Testament, and then there's this New Testament. This is the most obvious characteristic of the book. I think the futurist perspective obscures this most fundamental truth, because it keeps us so focused on prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled. There are, indeed, some few passages that speak of a future events. But that's not what the book is mostly about... it's about these two Testaments; about an old one that didn't work out too well, and about a new one which, through Jesus, leads to redemption.Othniel wrote:Coming from a futurist understanding, shifting over to partial preterism has meant an entire re-work of how I've understood much of scripture. This study has had effects on my understanding of the Old Testament prophets, the fulfillment of O.T. promises, the role of the Kingdom of God and Christ's Lordship in the gospel, my thoughts on proper hermeneutic principals among many many more things. I thought that I had a pretty good grasp of most of the Bible, but this study has caused me to re-examine many things I thought to be sure.
Re: A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
In response to Duncan's response:
What is so important about the 70AD coming that would initiate the Kingdom here on earth?
Did this event indicate the official taking away of the Kingdom from the nation of Israel?
Did the Kingdom have to be taken from Israel before it could be given to God's true people?
What is so important about the 70AD coming that would initiate the Kingdom here on earth?
Did this event indicate the official taking away of the Kingdom from the nation of Israel?
Did the Kingdom have to be taken from Israel before it could be given to God's true people?
[url]http://spiritualseeds.weebly.com[/url]
Re: A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
One of the keys to Rev. 20 is to see that the people martyred are there due to the actions of the beast. This character starts in Daniel 7,
Daniel 7:1-8 (ESV)
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter.
2 Daniel declared, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another.
4 The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it.
5 And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, 'Arise, devour much flesh.'
6 After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.
In summary, Daniel's beasts are a Lion, Bear, Leopard, and a terrible beast with ten horns. In Revelation, we see a reappearance of these beasts compiled into a composite beast from the sea,
Revelation 13:1-4 (ESV)
1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.
2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.
4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?"
Later on, we see that the Mystery Whore is riding this composite beast,
Revelation 17:3 (ESV)
3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.
Duncan has gone to great lengths (though it's not really a difficult argument to understand) in his books to define the elements of the composite beasts as Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The whore who is sitting on them is apostate Israel, who is about to be judged (the theme of the NT). The Southern Kingdom had been handed over to these four kingdoms starting with the invasion of Babylon, and the termination of the characters involved (all four beasts and the whore) is defined by the end of that cycle of punishment. When apostate Israel was destroyed the associated prophecies were fulfilled. The In addition to Duncan's books you would probably profit from "Days of Vengeance" by Chilton (free on the Internet as a PDF), where he is very detailed in his definition of whore as apostate Israel.
How does this relate to Rev. 20?
The martyrs are killed by the beast, presumably during the intensification of its activity in the last 3 1/2 years. The preterists that I'm aware of identify this as the Roman war against Jerusalem. If this is so, there is nothing in the text to indicate that the martyrs have anything to do with the function of the papery or any particular persecution after the destruction of apostate Israel in 70AD. This forces a reconsideration of the timing of their seating on thrones as well as the timing of the associated resurrection(s).
Doug
Daniel 7:1-8 (ESV)
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter.
2 Daniel declared, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another.
4 The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it.
5 And behold, another beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, 'Arise, devour much flesh.'
6 After this I looked, and behold, another, like a leopard, with four wings of a bird on its back. And the beast had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.
In summary, Daniel's beasts are a Lion, Bear, Leopard, and a terrible beast with ten horns. In Revelation, we see a reappearance of these beasts compiled into a composite beast from the sea,
Revelation 13:1-4 (ESV)
1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.
2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.
3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.
4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?"
Later on, we see that the Mystery Whore is riding this composite beast,
Revelation 17:3 (ESV)
3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.
Duncan has gone to great lengths (though it's not really a difficult argument to understand) in his books to define the elements of the composite beasts as Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The whore who is sitting on them is apostate Israel, who is about to be judged (the theme of the NT). The Southern Kingdom had been handed over to these four kingdoms starting with the invasion of Babylon, and the termination of the characters involved (all four beasts and the whore) is defined by the end of that cycle of punishment. When apostate Israel was destroyed the associated prophecies were fulfilled. The In addition to Duncan's books you would probably profit from "Days of Vengeance" by Chilton (free on the Internet as a PDF), where he is very detailed in his definition of whore as apostate Israel.
How does this relate to Rev. 20?
The martyrs are killed by the beast, presumably during the intensification of its activity in the last 3 1/2 years. The preterists that I'm aware of identify this as the Roman war against Jerusalem. If this is so, there is nothing in the text to indicate that the martyrs have anything to do with the function of the papery or any particular persecution after the destruction of apostate Israel in 70AD. This forces a reconsideration of the timing of their seating on thrones as well as the timing of the associated resurrection(s).
Doug
Re: A simple question about Rev 20:4-6.
Hi Guys,
My basic view on the establishment of the kingdom of God is as follows: Jesus won all authority at the cross (Matt. 28:18) but this kingdom authority was not fully applied in the earthly realm till AD 70 (Dan. 2:34-35, 44-45; Rev. 11:15-18). It was at AD 70 that God's people fully possessed the kingdom (Dan. 7:17-27 cf. Luke 19:11-27). Daniel 2 and 7 show 4 empires (Babylon Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome) and then the kingdom of God (note we are being shown the spiritual kings and princes behind these empires see Dan. 10:13, 20-21; cf. Dan. 12:1). The only empire shown past the 10th king of the Roman Empire (the demonic king working through Vespasian) is the kingdom of God.The kingdom of God would be fully established (as the saints possessed it) at the time that the little 11th horn (Vespasian's son Titus) overcame the Daniel's people for three and a half years (AD 67-70, Dan. 7:23-27)
My basic view on the establishment of the kingdom of God is as follows: Jesus won all authority at the cross (Matt. 28:18) but this kingdom authority was not fully applied in the earthly realm till AD 70 (Dan. 2:34-35, 44-45; Rev. 11:15-18). It was at AD 70 that God's people fully possessed the kingdom (Dan. 7:17-27 cf. Luke 19:11-27). Daniel 2 and 7 show 4 empires (Babylon Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome) and then the kingdom of God (note we are being shown the spiritual kings and princes behind these empires see Dan. 10:13, 20-21; cf. Dan. 12:1). The only empire shown past the 10th king of the Roman Empire (the demonic king working through Vespasian) is the kingdom of God.The kingdom of God would be fully established (as the saints possessed it) at the time that the little 11th horn (Vespasian's son Titus) overcame the Daniel's people for three and a half years (AD 67-70, Dan. 7:23-27)