What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:42 pm

Darrell wrote:Paidion, is the LXX usinng "αιωνιοι" to describe Jonah's time spent in the fish?
Seemingly. Here's how the NKJV translates it:
The waters surrounded me, even to my soul; The deep closed around me; Weeds were wrapped around my head.
I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God. (Jonah 2:5,6 NKJV)

The word that the NKJV translators rendered as "forever" is "αιωνιοι" in the LXX.
Paidion

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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by backwoodsman » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:10 pm

Homer wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:36 pm
Here we go folks - some reassuring, true to he author's intent, translations of the scriptures as the universalists would have it:

2 Corinthians 4:18
New American Standard Bible 1995
18. while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are temporary (aionia).

[...many more verses trimmed...]
Homer, to what universalists are you referring? I've never encountered any Christian universalists, or anyone else for that matter, who would translate aion/aionios as 'temporary'. Can you give reference(s) where that's documented?

In a different thread several years ago, I asked several times if you'd read the Heleen Keizer article I linked in my last post above; if I recall correctly, I never received a reply. So let me ask again: Have you read that article? If so, can offer some kind of cogent objections to her points?

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:12 pm

The word "The word “aiōnios” means neither "eternal" nor "temporary". It means "lasting".

I have pointed out that Josephus, the Jewish historian (who wrote “The Wars of the Jews” in Greek) used the word “aiōnios” to describe the length of time that Jonathan spent in prison, which is said to have been 3 years.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Darrell
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Darrell » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:43 pm

Paidion wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:57 am
In the Old Testament Septuagint, a translation of the Old Testament into Greek around 300 B.C., the word “aiōnios” is used for the time that Jonah spent in the belly of the fish.
Paidion wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:42 pm
Darrell wrote:Paidion, is the LXX usinng "αιωνιοι" to describe Jonah's time spent in the fish?
Seemingly. Here's how the NKJV translates it:
The waters surrounded me, even to my soul; The deep closed around me; Weeds were wrapped around my head.
I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God. (Jonah 2:5,6 NKJV)

The word that the NKJV translators rendered as "forever" is "αιωνιοι" in the LXX.
Paidion,
The NKJV used the Masoretic Text not the Septuagint. Here are 3 respected translations for your consideration:

Brenton's LXX
Jonah 2:7 to the clefts of the mountains; I went down into the earth, whose bars are the everlasting barriers: yet, O Lord my God, let my ruined life be restored.

Lexham English Septuagint
Jonah 2:7 I went down into the Earth where it's bars are eternal barriers, so let the corruption of my life depart, O Lord my God.

The Orthodox study Bible
Jonah 2:7 I descended into the Earth, the bars of which are everlasting barriers; yet let my life ascend from corruption, O Lord my God.

According to LXX do you still think αιωνιοι" is describing Jonah's time spent in the fish?

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Homer
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Homer » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:13 pm

Backwoodsman wrote:
Homer, to what universalists are you referring? I've never encountered any Christian universalists, or anyone else for that matter, who would translate aion/aionios as 'temporary'. Can you give reference(s) where that's documented?
Well, right here on this site in this discussion:

Paidion wrote:
But does "αιωνιος" mean "eternal"? This adjective is derived from its nominal form "αιων" which means "age".
Therefore the adjective "αιωνιος" means "age-long".
And:
The word "The word “aiōnios” means neither "eternal" nor "temporary". It means "lasting".
I have pointed out that Josephus, the Jewish historian (who wrote “The Wars of the Jews” in Greek) used the word “aiōnios” to describe the length of time that Jonathan spent in prison, which is said to have been 3 years.
Paidion carefully explained his belief that aionios does not mean eternal but rather means age long. If it does not mean eternal but means age-long I would say that is temporary. But then he says it means "lasting", a nebulous interpretation.

In my mock translations of the verses I listed I supplied "temporary" to show the true import of the Universalist's claims about the meaning the NT writers conveyed. What the writers of scripture meant is all that matters; root word studies and what Josephus wrote, etc. can not give us the answer. And I would challenge you and any Universalist to respond to my question for Steve:
Is there a scripture somewhere that informs us of after death repentance and salvation?
Surely the Universalist can point to scripture concerning this if it is true as they say. Or did Jesus just forget to mention it?

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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by steve7150 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:03 am

Is there a scripture somewhere that informs us of after death repentance and salvation?
Surely the Universalist can point to scripture concerning this if it is true as they say. Or did Jesus just forget to mention it?







Rev 22.17 The Sprit and the Bride invite whomsoever to drink from the water of life, & to my understanding , the only folks left are the ones in the lake of fire.

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steve
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by steve » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:01 am

Homer wrote:
Surely the Universalist can point to scripture concerning this if it is true as they say. Or did Jesus just forget to mention it?
Jesus hardly ever mentioned the matter of postmortem punishment—and when He did, His purpose was not to diminish its severity. What possible reason would Jesus have for mentioning this idea, even if true? One thing He never taught was that postmortem judgment involved eternal suffering.

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Homer
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Homer » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:31 pm

Steve,

I had asked:
Is there a scripture somewhere that informs us of after death repentance and salvation?
Surely the Universalist can point to scripture concerning this if it is true as they say.
In response You asked:
Jesus hardly ever mentioned the matter of postmortem punishment—and when He did, His purpose was not to diminish its severity. What possible reason would Jesus have for mentioning this idea, even if true?
I was going to respond but my old brain (almost as old as Paidion). did not know what idea you were referring to. Postmortem repentance/salvation or postmortem punishment? Please clarify.

Thanks, Homer

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steve
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by steve » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:33 am

The idea I was referring to was the one you mentioned in your question : "Is there a scripture somewhere that informs us of after death repentance and salvation?"

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