Promises only for Israel

[Guest]

David, Very well put and inspiring. I knew I came to the right place for the clearity of the Source by which Whom we all live.

[Guest]

Hey,

It's Richad. Hi you guys.

I'm going thru the same kind of thing right know except it is online.

Take a look at this.

ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
Replacement is another term that Christians throw around. The Church (which also includes believing Jews (blood)). There is a replacement. The New Covenant has replaced the old. All people, even Jews, can only have covenant with God thru Christ.

Look what he answers with.

ORIGINAL: Dave W
Can you really hear yourself? Your writing dripps of anti-semitism, and I think you do not even realize it.

The Church never replaced Israel, it was added to it. Big difference.

"The Church (which also includes believing Jews (blood))..." Sorry. The Jews were here first - by a long margin. You write it as if it is an afterthought. You say the old covenant has been replaced. Which one? The Adamic? The Noahic? The Abrahamic? The Mosaic? Or the Davidic? The New Covenant was promised to "the whole house of Israel." Not to the gentiles. Of course Isaiah tells that gentiles would be included.

Liked what this person had to say:

ORIGINAL: Olympian

actually.... there was nothing to replace (the jews abandoned the covenant long before the coming of Messiah) so it can't really be called replacement theology.

Instead, it should be seen as fulfillment theology, Jesus fulfilled the covenant expectations of God and the Torah that the jews long since abandoned. from the beginning the convenant was to be an all inclusive covenant (e.g., all the nations will be blessed through you" (Gen 12; 15)) yet the jews, not yhwh, made it exclusive. when they were to be a light to the nations, they kept to themselves.

no one should hate Jews nor should they hate French people or Chinese people or Russian people or Nigerian people or Iranian people or hispanic people and so on.

with the coming of the Messiah/Christ salvation is for all and is in Christ alone, through faith alone by grace alone.

Ethinicity, gender, social class, etc, no longer (nor ever did) play a factor.

[Guest]

Glad to be IN Christ,

Richad

Right on Richad

[Guest]

Fantastic responses so far. I only add:

Much of this discussion revolves around who God's chosen people are. Arguments go back and forth between ethnic Israel (dispensationalism) and those who have placed their faith in God through obedience to the light given them (biblical). Ethnic Jews like Abraham, Moses and Simeon are listed as examples along with Gentiles like Rahab, Ruth and Cornelius. All are referenced in the Bible.

However, will we meet in heaven those who lived outside of the influence of Israel and even the church who are a part of the remnant because they responded to the light they were given in faith and believed God?
Since they didn't technically convert to Judaism, what dispensational category do they fall into?

The biblical figures Enoch and Job fall into this category.
It seems Fulfillment theology (borrowed from Steve as a better title than Replacement theology) easily wraps around this while dispensationalism struggles to place these individuals within its system.

Scriptural support:
Acts 17:24-27
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him....

Romans 1:19-20
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.

Am I off my rocker?
Thoughts?

[Guest]

I thought you might all be interested in the response I received. BTW I have been asked to stop posting but I only posted in response to what I though was aimed at me. My "friends name is Stan Goodenough and since finding out the truth I have seen the kookier side of him that I did not know was there. You may be interested in viewing this blog at www.stangoodenough.com and the article in question is the one about the apple of God's eye.

Allyn Morton: No Allyn, you are not the “James” I am addressing – although I did change his name out of respect for his privacy. I described him as “extremely supportive of modern-day Israel” – something I do not believe you are. As you have said before, the State of Israel is no more special to you than any other nation state. Knowing your position I have asked you not to post here because I do not wish my blog pages to become places of contention where some readers presume to accuse others of “ignorance” or worse. I will respond to your “answers” to my questions this time.

Q. If God is finished with Israel as a nation, why has Satan tried non-stop since the Ascension to annihilate them?

A. Could it be, perhaps, because God promised repeatedly (in Leviticus and Deuteronomy) that this would happen to the Israelites who reject His covenant?

MY RESPONSE: While God promised, and actually prophesied in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that the Israelites would experience terrible curses as a result of their unfaithfulness to Him, He also assured them, in the same passages, that after they had experienced those curses they would be restored to their land, would repent, and would be restored to God. Virtually every one of Israel’s prophets subsequently confirmed this. At the same time, it was the devil that entered the minds of men like Haman, Titus, Nero, the Crusaders, the Inquisitors, the Nazis and the Muslim Arabs and through them the curses were implemented. But as Jesus said: “Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!” (Matt 18:7)

Q. Why did God preserve them against these overwhelming odds?

A. What evidence can you present that He has done so? Can you prove that there is a Jewish race today? What, in your opinion, qualifies someone to be called a Jew? How much Jewish blood must be in them?

MY RESPONSE: I will not deign to answer this discredited antisemitic canard.

Q. Why did He bring them back to their land to be reconstituted as a nation?

A. Did He do that? I thought it was the Zionist Movement and the United Nations. Do you recognize all United Nations charters as “Acts of God”? I personally do not.

MY RESPONSE: What I recognize is the fulfillment of God’s clearly spelled out and unmistakable promises and guarantees to His people Israel. The Zionist Movement and the United Nations have been instruments used by God to carry out His will.

Q. Why did He restore Jerusalem to Jewish rule?

A. Again, I don’t know how you can be certain that He did so. Why did God take America from the Indians, or Australia from the Aboriginals? Perhaps He had a purpose in doing so. However, if He did, it is not revealed in the Bible.

MY RESPONSE: You make it a little easier for me to understand how the Israelites doubted God so soon after seeing the wonders He inflicted on the Egyptians. Israel’s preservation and national rebirth are unprecedented in the annals of mankind; their return to their heartland and to their city, Jerusalem, in the Six Day War, was a miracle and then some. I think we should be careful of the consequences of questioning whether God has performed miracles when He so clearly has.

Q. And why on earth is He sending His Son back as the Lion of the TRIBE OF JUDAH (i.e. as a JEW) to the capital of the Jewish people?

A. Why do you say this is so? The only reference to the Lion of the Tribe of Judah in scripture (Rev.5:5) is a reference to Christ prevailing over His enemies in His atoning work. What has that title to do with His coming again?

MY RESPONSE: It is His title and it will always be His title. He is a Jew, born into the line of David and the Tribe of Judah, circumcised on the eighth day in accordance with the Law of Moses and the Covenant with Abraham. Just as He still carries the marks of the nails and spear in His flesh He still carries this mark of the covenant in His flesh. He never changed from a Jew into a Christian at the Resurrection.

Q. Why is Jesus coming back to Jerusalem instead of to Washington DC, or London, or any other major and influential metropolis? Is this just happenstance?

A. Where does the scripture predict that He will return to Jerusalem? I don’t believe this is predicted. However, if He does so, it may be merely that that is the place from which He departed. Sort of returning through the same door by which He exited. Is there any reason (other than assumption) to believe that the point of His touchdown will determine the focus of His activities after He has returned?

MY RESPONSE: Returning through the same door…?! This is no Narnia story with magical doors into other worlds. You may not believe it is predicted. It’s not predicted, it is foretold. Ezekiel sees the Glory of the Lord coming from the way of the east and entering the temple through the eastern gate, after which the name of the city of Jerusalem will be changed to “THE LORD IS THERE.” Malachi sees Him coming suddenly to His temple. There is only one place where His temple has stood and will stand and that is on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. In Zechariah He says that He is returning to Jerusalem with mercy, that His house will be built in this city and that He will again choose Jerusalem. Later in the same book He declares that He will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. So intent is He on doing this that He repeats His intention in Zech 8:3: “’I will return to Zion, and dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, the Mountain of the LORD of hosts, the Holy Mountain.’” What, or rather Who is this “Glory of the LORD?” As a Bible-believing Christian I believe He is none other than the resurrected Son of God Who left Jerusalem and will return to Jerusalem in power and splendor to take up His place on the throne of His father David. As the angels told the disciples after He ascended into heaven: “This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11) And the well-known passage from Zechariah: “And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. (Zech 14:4)

YOU: Nothing is replaced in “Replacement Theology” other than that the Old Covenant’s promises are replaced with the “better promises” of the New Covenant (Heb.8).

MY RESPONSE: You make the classic mistake here of writing off the Abrahamic Covenant, which has not been replaced by the New Covenant. It still stands. It will stand forever. And the physical sons and daughters of Abraham through Isaac and Israel will always be Israel, into which WE have been grafted. The natural root and branches are physical Israel Allyn. We are the grafted in wild olive branches. See Romans 9-11. In your whole interpretation and approach you are dangerously close, in my understanding, to doing what Paul expressely warns us against when he says:

“You will say then, ‘Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.’ Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Rom 11:19-22)

I must end here. I will not respond to your other comments but will delete them. I think you can see that we are miles apart. I ask again that you please respect my wishes and refrain from posting on these pages. This blog is for those who agree on the fundamentals of biblical Christian Zionism. Thank you.

It may be an act in futility but it would be good from my stand point if some of you posted a response here and there at www.stangoodenough.com

[Guest]

It is His title and it will always be His title. He is a Jew, born into the line of David and the Tribe of Judah, circumcised on the eighth day in accordance with the Law of Moses and the Covenant with Abraham. Just as He still carries the marks of the nails and spear in His flesh He still carries this mark of the covenant in His flesh. He never changed from a Jew into a Christian at the Resurrection.

Astonishing

I guess Romans 2 & 4, Galatians 3-4 and Ephesians 2-3 are ignored.

[Guest]

However, just to cause trouble , couldn't Galatians 6:16 (ESV):
Quote:
And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

"Behold,the days are coming says the Lord, when i will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." Jer 31.31

I think here in Jer 31.31 the "house of Israel" means spiritual believers in Christ whether jew or gentile which should mean the same as "Israel of God."

[Guest]

Here is an interesting article.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/pub ... 312ib.html

It is quite sad what christians have done to their own brothers, attempting to fulfill prophesies through their own efforts.

Who really are God's people? Those who follow Him? Or those that have a bloodline? I thought that it was those who follow Him, at least that is the indication I get from John 8:39-59.

[Guest]

I am a christian of jewish descent who does not see any replacement theology because it's like comparing apples and oranges. The Mosaic covenant was an earthly covenant having little or nothing to do with eternal life and the New Covenant is mostly about eternal life through Christ. Two very different covenants therefore how can an apple be a relacement for an orange.
But these types of articles about the "Israeli War Machine" are truly baffling. The jews are almost exterminated by Hitler, the U.N. gives them a tiny piece of land in the middle east , almost immediately six arab armies try to wipe them out after first telling arab palistinians to flee or they will be killed too and somehow possibly through the hand of God the jews survive.
At that time there were a lot of Palistinian christians just as there once were a lot in many other arab and muslim countries.
Where are they now? Did the Israeli war machine reduce their numbers also or could it be that Islam is a totally intolerant religion of anything else.
I keep hearing in reference to jews or Israel "Christ rejectors" which is true they are. But so are muslims and hindus and buddaists and atheists and etc etc but none of the others are referred to as "Christ rejectors."

When Jesus spoke in parables in Mark 4.11 and Matt 13 the disciples asked why he spoke in parables and in referring to the Pharisees , Christ said "it was not given to them to see OTHERWISE they might turn and their sins be forgiven."
Although that may have been only directed at the Pharisees most jews trusted and followed them so the effect was on the jewish nation since no one had their own bibles to read at that time.

[Guest]

And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

It has been said that the Greek word "kai" sometimes means "even". I would agree that it is sometimes translated as "even", but I don't think it ever means "even". The word means either "and" or "also". I don't think any of the places where translators translate it as "even" require it to be so translated. In each and every case, either "and" or "also" will suffice.

By translating the word as "even", the modalist attempt to use the following verse to support their position:

John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

By translating the word "kai" as "even" the modalists try indicate that Jesus was here claiming to be "the only true God", whereas in actuality He was distinguishing Himself from "the Only True God".

However, in some cases the word is used in Greek to distinguish not the individuals but the role they play. This is done even in English. We say, "Joe is father and provider for his children." In this case, we are speaking of two different roles for the same man. So in the verse in question, I think the author is talking about a single people who "walk by this rule" and who are also "the Israel of God".