Is this person off or is it me......

[Guest]

This is from another board the person in question is Bronzesnake.

To get some context.

kate_paints Said:
One of my dear friends was Jewish and rejected Christ. She died of cancer and many tried to save her. She'd ask them why they didn't go for the Book of Mormons? (Just her joke.) Does God turn his back on Jews (his chosen people in the old testament) that don't convert to Christianity or acknowledge Christ as their savior?

Bronzesnake in response says:

My friends, how can we debate God's own words?
There is much more to the Jews and their promise from God than can easily be expressed, and explained on a forum...but I'll give it a go!

Let's take a look at the scriptures I posted one at a time for starters.


The same question which precipitated this thread came up back then, and here's waht Paul said...
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Quite clearly, God has not turned away from the Jews.

Now, let's see what God says happened to the Jews back then.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
God Himself caused the Jews to not recognize Jesus! Why would He do that?
Read on and find out...

This master plan was unveiled by King David...
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Wow! King David doesn't mix his words does he?
Keep reading for further explanation...

Here is Paul, further explaining the question which is being asked here about the Jews...
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Paul says that God did not blind the Jews so that they would suffer eternal damnation - He blinded them so we Gentiles could be included into the family!
Think about it my friends. If the Jews had have recognised Jesus for who He was, then there would have been no outcry for Jesus to have been crucified. If Jesus wasn't crucified, we would have to die in our sins!
God is The Master Planner my friends, and all of His ways are not known to us, but here, at least the question of the Jews has been uncovered, and explained for all who will see what they read with their own eyes.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
In other words, if the Jews blindness has the effect of our inclusion into salvation, then why would God condemn them for that? In fact, how much greater will their reward be for the years of persecution which they have, and continue to suffer because God purposefully blinded them so we might be saved?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Paul calls it a "mystery" because it is apparant that many back then didn't get it, just as many today don't get it. We are warned not to be ignorant about the destination of the Jews, and even told that, this same "blindness" was what befell the Jews themselves! Look carefully at what Paul says next. Paul says the Jews would be blind "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in"! This is proof that there is a time limit on this blindness, and a purpose also.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
This verse clenches it my friends. The Jews will go through the seven year tribulation period. There is much proof for this in Revelations, and I will provide it if anyone wants to see it. At the end of the seven year tribulation period, Jesus returns (There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer) and He shall wash away all sin from the Jews! (shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob)
God concludes the proceeding verses with this final assertion, which we must believe, because God keeps His promises!
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Bible believing Christians will be raptured prior to the start of the seven year tribulation period. The Jews who have not accepted Jesus will be left behind. During that final seven year period, God will supernaturally protect the Jews, and send them 144,000 newly converted Jewish teachers to tell the remaining Jews the truth about Jesus. During that time many will accept Jesus as their saviour, finally understanding the New Testament is an extention of the one True God's Holy Word, and shall be saved!

That is the truth my friends. In the end, it is Jesus Himself that the Jews gain their eternal salvation from! So you are right! No one comes to the Father, but by Jesus! He does it in His own time scale my friends!

John

What are your thoughts of John's answer?

[Guest]

Not much there to agree with. He is apparently a guy who has heard dispensational teaching and, not knowing the whole system, has reached his own conclusions that the Jews can be saved whether or not they come to Christ. Nice thought. Wish it were true.

If it were, it is hard to say why Jesus said they were children of the devil (John 8:44), who could not escape the condemnation of gehenna (Matt.23:33), and Paul said that the wrath has come upon them to the uttermost (1 Thess. 2:14-16). The fellow has completely misunderstood Romans 11.

But, hey, "how can we debate God's own words?"

[_Sean]

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
In other words, if the Jews blindness has the effect of our inclusion into salvation, then why would God condemn them for that? In fact, how much greater will their reward be for the years of persecution which they have, and continue to suffer because God purposefully blinded them so we might be saved?

I'm not sure I understand why God wouldn't condemn them. This passage comes to mind:

Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8 Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

All I can say is, read Romans over and over again starting from chapter 1. Read it in context. If you start with a dispensational assumption and then are spoon-fed a few passages out of context you can arrive at this conclusion.

Not all Jews are hardened. This is proven by the fact that Paul is not hardened, nor are some of those Paul personally knew who were Jewish converts. The Jews that were hardened were that way because they had already rejected God's righteousness and were trying to be justified by their own righteousness:

Romans 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Romans 11:2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children.

Is this guy saying that someone can die in unbelief and because they are Jewish they are saved anyway? Even if they die before the supposed 7 year tribulation? You have to be one of the "elect", you have to be part of the "Israel of God", not "natural Israel". Jewish descent does not save you.

Although it's kinda pointless, you could ask him to show you where in Revelation it says there will be a 7 year tribulation, and to point out where the rapture is. (Remember that the rapture and the resurrection of the dead happen at the same time)

[Guest]

Im curious,,,,,when did Jesus quit being King of the Jews anyway? I guess I'll have to get out my concordance and see if its there...

Maranatha

Crusader

[_Sean]

Im curious,,,,,when did Jesus quit being King of the Jews anyway? I guess I'll have to get out my concordance and see if its there...

Maranatha

Crusader

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."


Seems to be king over all. All Gentiles and even all Jews, even those who reject Him:

Act 3:22 Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.'

[Guest]

Mark 15 reads...

1"Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, reached a decision. They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.

 2"Are you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate.
      "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.


Crusader

Maranatha

[Guest]

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Guest]

Crusader,

So He's not my King?

[_Sean]

Mark 15 reads...

1"Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, reached a decision. They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.

2"Are you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate.
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.


Crusader

Maranatha

That is correct, what is your point? It might help if you would say what it is. Did someone say that Jesus did not say he was king of the Jews?

[Guest]

Just my normal anti replacement theology whit at work Sean...but we have beat that horse to death on the closed thread...which by the way was closed at 5000 views and I still find it fascinating that 1700 hundered views have occured since it was locked...people are so hungry to find out whats happening with prophecy and Israel... after all this 1900 year supposed millenium things getting a little boring for folks! The left behind series really got people thinking about end times again. Luckily we have people like Tm Lahaye and Dave Hunt who persevere...the Church has been blessed....anyway its all on the closed thread!!!!!!

Maranatha

Crusader