When is a view fully preteristic?

[Douglas]

Resurrection is, by definition, physical.

Where in the Bible does it define resurrection as being only physical? I know that this mortal body must be shed and we will put on the immortal, but what realy does the Bible tell us about that?

All I know for sure is that when I die, I go to be with Christ, forever. And if there is a physical resurrection at the end of time, of which I am not sure, does the Bible explicitly say that it is a physical resurrection?

I only ask these questions because I am learning, and growing, and desire to know more about it, not because I think I have the answers, nor am trying to persuade anyone to believe how I do regarding eschatology. Just searching for the truth brothers!!

[mattrose]

Where in the Bible does it define resurrection as being only physical? I know that this mortal body must be shed and we will put on the immortal, but what realy does the Bible tell us about that?

All I know for sure is that when I die, I go to be with Christ, forever. And if there is a physical resurrection at the end of time, of which I am not sure, does the Bible explicitly say that it is a physical resurrection?

I only ask these questions because I am learning, and growing, and desire to know more about it, not because I think I have the answers, nor am trying to persuade anyone to believe how I do regarding eschatology. Just searching for the truth brothers!!

The phrase 'physical resurrection' was redundant to the early church. Anyone who reads the Christian historian NT Wright would find it nearly impossible to argue that resurrection meant anything other than 'physical'. Our post-death experience exists in two phases. First, we go to be with the Lord. We may be given temporary spiritual bodies at that time. But those in paradise still await the ultimate hope of resurrection. Jesus said that the graves would be opened and the dead would be judged. Graves hold physical bodies. Jesus rose from the grave physically as a firstfruit. Creation groans for the day of its physical redemption. Full preterism simply misses the message in my opinion.

[Paidion]

All I know for sure is that when I die, I go to be with Christ, forever.

How do you know that? Do you have any Scripture which unequivocally states that this is the case?

[MoGrace2u]

The phrase 'physical resurrection' was redundant to the early church. Anyone who reads the Christian historian NT Wright would find it nearly impossible to argue that resurrection meant anything other than 'physical'. Our post-death experience exists in two phases. First, we go to be with the Lord. We may be given temporary spiritual bodies at that time. But those in paradise still await the ultimate hope of resurrection. Jesus said that the graves would be opened and the dead would be judged. Graves hold physical bodies. Jesus rose from the grave physically as a firstfruit. Creation groans for the day of its physical redemption. Full preterism simply misses the message in my opinion.

The resurrection that was promised was certainly thought of in physical terms. But the NT adds a spiritual dimension for the hope of eternal life in the new birth for the living. Israel was to face judgment in the resurrection - a judgment that was to determine whether they enter glory or not. Those who partake of the new birth do not face that judgment. Jesus rose from the dead in a flesh and blood body - but did He enter glory like that when He passed into the heavenlies - or was He transformed? 1 John 3:2 seems to imply that how Jesus is now is how we will be - which was something he did not know exactly what His form is now. I guess we will find out when we see Him as He is...

[mattrose]

The resurrection that was promised was certainly thought of in physical terms. But the NT adds a spiritual dimension for the hope of eternal life in the new birth for the living. Israel was to face judgment in the resurrection - a judgment that was to determine whether they enter glory or not. Those who partake of the new birth do not face that judgment. Jesus rose from the dead in a flesh and blood body - but did He enter glory like that when He passed into the heavenlies - or was He transformed? 1 John 3:2 seems to imply that how Jesus is now is how we will be - which was something he did not know exactly what His form is now. I guess we will find out when we see Him as He is...

Yes, the NT does ADD a spiritual dimension and even uses resurrection languages, occasionally, to describe it. But this, by no means, SUBTRACTS from the regular meaning of resurrection. It is a transformed physicality, certainly, but still a physicality. No partial preterist that I know of argues that the resurrection bodies won't be transformed and capable of amazing things, but full preterists are trying to argue that a spiritual body won't be a body (in some strange way) or that the new earth won't be made of earth (so to speak). Paul doesn't say we'll be raised spiritual. He says we'll be raised a spiritual body. He's not contrasting material with immaterial. He's contrasting corruptible with incorruptible. God's goal is to restore the physical cosmos, specifically earth. He will do it.

[Douglas]

Douglas wrote:
All I know for sure is that when I die, I go to be with Christ, forever.


How do you know that? Do you have any Scripture which unequivocally states that this is the case?

All I know for sure is that when I die, I go to be with Christ, forever.

How do you know that? Do you have any Scripture which unequivocally states that this is the case?

Hmmmm... Good question brother Paidion. Like you I guess I deduct it from what I have read, lets look, I could be wrong, but this is how I understand it currently brother.....

Phil 1:21 - 24 "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you"

I humbly suggest that Paul is telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with Christ. No? Maybe I am missunderstanding this? Is he not talking about physical death and that to die is gain? And what is the gain, but to be with Christ? And if Paul goes to be with Christ upon his physical death, will there ever come a time that he will be seperated from Christ after that?Help me if I am not getting this right brothers. Will not the same happen for us today who pass away believers in Christ?

[MoGrace2u]

Yes, the NT does ADD a spiritual dimension and even uses resurrection languages, occasionally, to describe it. But this, by no means, SUBTRACTS from the regular meaning of resurrection. It is a transformed physicality, certainly, but still a physicality. No partial preterist that I know of argues that the resurrection bodies won't be transformed and capable of amazing things, but full preterists are trying to argue that a spiritual body won't be a body (in some strange way) or that the new earth won't be made of earth (so to speak). Paul doesn't say we'll be raised spiritual. He says we'll be raised a spiritual body. He's not contrasting material with immaterial. He's contrasting corruptible with incorruptible. God's goal is to restore the physical cosmos, specifically earth. He will do it.

Starting with that premise that the restoration of the earth is to its former glory - we can see a division existed in Genesis. Perhaps only after the curse upon the earth though, in that Eden was barred from human access after the fall. Seems to me Eden is still here - just not accessible to us in the physical form we have now. If Adam was made corruptible and forced to leave then he has to made incorruptible to return.

So here is where I am with this: If heaven is in fact located in Eden - as a spiritual realm that has access to ours but not ours to theirs (so to speak); is it Eden the saints go to upon death? Until such time that the curse is fully removed from the rest of the earth so that the heavenly city can be kept open to all the glorified saints? I know Hank Hanegraff talks about Paradise restored, but Paradise/Eden itself didn't change - rather the rest of the earth and creation did. When you see terms like "outer darkness" it seems to suggest this division - in the earth.

I have a hard time conceiving of heaven as "up there" somewhere, which is what gives support to the idea that we exist there as disembodied spirits - which I don't accept. If heaven is the source and substance of this world, then it is something like this one, but without the bounds this world has placed upon it. Heaven's inhabitants can enter bodily into our sphere, but we cannot enter into theirs. And it seems that death to this physical body is the only way out of here. But since that death would be permanent - no longer a living soul; we have to have the substance of heavenly life restored to us to survive it. Otherwise the dead would stay dead - if not for the promise of God to resurrect the dead back to a living soul - an embodied living soul. And if that resurrection takes place in the heavenly realm, then the body raised up must be suited to dwell in that sphere -ie. incorruptible.

So in this realm the new birth imputes this spiritual life back into man so that when his body dies, he is brought thru death immediately into his new body made without hands. Not as a resurrection into the eternal realm but as passing thru. I see this as being different than what was promised to the OT saints who "waited" in death, ie. truly dead, not as disembodied souls. Too many passages in the OT suggest that death for the physical body meant no consciousness of any kind. And if spiritual death separated man from God then his physical death would make this permanent - hence the need for the promise to give man hope.

I am still musing on these things... The info seems to be there in scripture, figuring it out is the challenge! There is a chronology but only as it applies to this world. When the spiritual realm is in view the chronology seems to dissapate. I don't see that Christ is going to manifest Himself physically in order to rescue us here, since He has made it possible for us to join Him where He is already.

[Douglas]

Well said MoGrace2u.. Gives me much to chew on. Thanks!!

[Paidion]

Phil 1:21 - 24 "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you"

I humbly suggest that Paul is telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with Christ. No? Maybe I am missunderstanding this? Is he not talking about physical death and that to die is gain? And what is the gain, but to be with Christ? And if Paul goes to be with Christ upon his physical death, will there ever come a time that he will be seperated from Christ after that?Help me if I am not getting this right brothers. Will not the same happen for us today who pass away believers in Christ?

Douglas, in another place, Paul seems to suggest if there is no resurrection of the dead, then we might as well eat, drink, and be merry, for in that case, there would be no after life.

1 Corinthians 15:32 What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

He also said:

For if the dead are not raised, ....then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied. I Corinthians 15: 16-19

Paul seemed to teach personal resurrection was our great hope, that if we die and are not raised to life, we'll stay dead, and have no hope outside this present life. With this in mind, let's consider the passage you quoted:

Phil 1:21 - 24 "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you"

I suggest that Paul believed that when we die, we're dead until we're raised to life again. However, from our personal point of view, being with Christ will be the next thing of which we will be aware after our death.

When I was about to be rendered unconscious for surgery, I happened to glance at the clock. It was one o'clock. Then I heard voices and glanced at the clock again. It was three o'clock! I had absolutely no memory of anything in between. The surgery was completed, but I had no awareness of it.

So even if 3000 years passes between our death and resurrection, it will seem as if we died and went directly into the presence of Christ. So for us it is to "depart and be with Christ."

[mattrose]

I'm not sure of the nature of the full-preterist theologies held by some on this board. Perhaps some point-blank questions are in order:

1. Do you view the resurrection and the ascension as basically the same? In other words, when we die, will we 'ascend' (so to speak) into the spiritual state and that will constitute the resurrection?

2. Will the physical world as we know it go on forever? Is there an end to history as we know it?

3. Will the graves of past Christians ever literally be opened?