The "rapture?" of the wicked

[Guest]

Maybe it all happens in the twinkling of an eye, and we wont get to watch it for very long

[Guest]

mike wrote:

Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

when? and what will it "look" like?

TK

Never thought about what it will "look" like. Irrelevant really. If you are in Christ that is.

When...When one becomes absent from the body.

TK...What do you think it will "look" like?

[Guest]

i tend to think the believers will be raptured while the new heavens and new earth are created (and the wicked judged) then we will return with christ.

TK

[Guest]

i tend to think the believers will be raptured while the new heavens and new earth are created (and the wicked judged) then we will return with christ.

TK

So then you are post-millenial. Well...you are definately one step closer to the truth. 8) Mike

[Guest]

I was listening to one of steve g's lectures today, and he was talking about the passages where Jesus said "two will be sleeping in a bed, one will be taken and one left" and "two will be working in a field- one will be taken and one left." Many have taken these verses to refer to the rapture of the righteous, as in the "Left Behind" books. Steve explained how, when read in context (particularly Jesus's prelude to these statements referring to Noah's ark and how the wicked were "taken" in the flood) these verses actually teach that the wicked will be taken away at the end of the age, not the Church.

My question, though, is what will this look like? Let's say I am in a car with someone who is driving (unsaved) and THAT day arrives. will he just disappear, like we imagine the rapture to occur? will the angels physically "escort" the wicked to a place of judgment? in other words, if there is a "reverse" rapture, what will this be like, to us that remain?

TK

Just my two cents,

I do not think that either of the two described, one taken, and one left, represent the righteous. BOTH are the unrighteous one is taken and killed, hence "where the corpse is there the eagles are gathered". and the other is the survivor taken into captivity. I believe the passage like the one preceeding it is about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

In Jesus illustrations in these passages the righteous are represented by Noah and Lot. look at what Jesus says.

Luk 17:26 "And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luk 17:27 "They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 "Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
Luk 17:29 "but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

In the above Jesus points out that the unrighteous will be caught by surprise as they go about normal daily activities but the righteous in his illustration were NOT going about thier norml daily activities, they were fleeing, Noah into the safety of the ark. And job from the city and the plain. Jesus very next words.

Luk 17:31 "In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.
Luk 17:32 "Remember Lot's wife.

Jesus is clearly telling believers that they must flee and not turn back. if they do then like Lot's wife they will perish. this makes no sense if this is the "end of the world" one cannot flee to safety to escape the end of the world. then Jesus continues.

Luk 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luk 17:35 "Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
Luk 17:36 "Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

in the above Jesus speaks of pairs of twos, and what are they doing? they are not fleeing like Noah and Lot. they are going about life as normal just as Jesus said the wicked would do. until it is too late. two men in the same bed, two women at the same grindstone, two men working in a field. but in Jesus illustrations of the righteous, (Noah and Lot) the righteous were not with the wicked they had separated themselves from the wicked and the normal daily routines of life and had fled to safety.

[Guest]

Benaiah, even if the Luke 17 passage does refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D, the following words of Jesus clearly indicates that, at the end of the age, the wicked will be taken away, before the righteous shine in the Kingdom of the Father.

Matthew 13:

24 Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.
27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?’
28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’
29 But he said, ‘No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’"
...
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field."
37 He answered, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of man;
38 the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the weeds are the sons of the evil one,
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers,
42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

[Guest]

Padion,

I think the scriptures are clear that at the second coming the wicked will certainly be taken care of. my point is the passages in Luke 17 do not point to the second coming. Instructions like Luk 17:31 "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.

make no sense if this is the second coming. Jesus is clearly telling them to flee if they are to survive. this has sno relevance to the second coming. I can't see Jesus meaning, "when you see me coming in the clouds don't run back for your 52" widescreen and your mp3 collection."

[Guest]

Just an observation here on the Mat 13 parable. Could it be that the first part of the harvest is the separation of the tares from the wheat? Which is the task the angels are given when the word of the Lord goes forth to instruct them. This is not to be a task we do, but only the angels as the harvest begins. So I am wondering how this separation takes place. In 70 AD the believers fled the city. In Sodom, the angels drag Lot out of the city. In Noah's day, he boarded the ark. Here the tares are gathered to be burned while the wheat is also gathered to be put into the barn - but a different word is used for 'gather' when it applies to believers.

In an agricultural setting the wheat is what is bundled (I am picturing haystacks here). Also it is the wheat that is winnowed to blow off the chaff. In either case, it is the wheat that is retained while the weeds/ chaff is burned or blown away (ie., not kept). So perhaps it is not the tares that are gathered 'first' as in the order of the gathering; but the separation that must take place in order for the wheat to be harvested and then brought into the barn. What needs to be gotten rid of is the tares (what is evil/ wicked/ defiling) so that only pure wheat can be found to gather.

If anyone is following me here, my take on this is in line with the shaking that takes place so that what cannot be shaken may remain. (Heb 12:27)

Addendum:

However, it is also true that in the kingdom of God we have part in NOW, there is no who is defiled who is in it. We have all been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. This parable is speaking of the world (kosmos) as to where the tares and wheat both dwell, and the end of the age (aion) as the time of the harvest. The only age that there could have been a need to remove tares from the KINGDOM (note not the world), would have been when the kingdom changed hands (so to speak). Those tares have been gathered - though not yet burned; and we are safely 'in the barn'.

[Guest]

After visiting a few full preterist sites and after reading "Expectations Demand A First Century Rapture" by Edward E. Stevens, I find the only real arguement they seem to really push is the lack of a voice from all of the earlier 1st century Christians since the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. It seems all they have to offer is this saying "The silence points either to nonfulfillment or their absence from the scene via rapture."

Surely there is written historical evidence that the Church didn't disappear at the call of Christ leaving all others to come to the saving knowledge of Christ on their own with no preachers, teachers and evangelists to indoctrinate the next new batch of believers.

What do we know that they don't know?