Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

[RickC]

Allyn, et al,

Here's some stuff on the nature of the resurrected body. I'm just putting it out there for you or anyone else to see. We discussed "Resurrection: Physical or Spiritual?" @ FBFF in a thread started by featheredprop (Dane).
URL: http://www.wvss.com/forumc/posting.php? ... st&p=31641

There I posted excerpts from a Beliefnet interview with Wright: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/148/story_14843.html

"Your Spirit-Powered Resurrection Body"
Renowned Bible scholar N.T. Wright talks about what human bodies will be like when they rise.
Interview by Laura Sheahen

Christian doctrine teaches that, at the end of time, God will physically raise up human beings. But what will "the resurrection of the body" be like? Anglican bishop N.T. Wright, one of the world's premier New Testament scholars, spoke with Beliefnet recently about the subject--and about his series of accessible Bible commentaries, "Mark for Everyone," "Luke for Everyone," and more.

In your books, you speak of bodily resurrection, not just Jesus' but regular Christians'. You say "God will make a new type of material not subject to death out of the old material."

You get this issue raised explicitly in 1 Corinthians [read chapter 15], a bit in 2 Corinthians, and indeed in Romans 8. It is fascinating to me that most contemporary Christians find this idea strange and new, since it is so front and center--in Paul particularly. It shows that in post-Enlightenment reading of the New Testament a significant strand of material has just been screened right out.

A lot of scholars seem to look at the Pauline phrase which in Greek is "pneumatic" body and in English is "spiritual" body, and they seem to think the resurrection won't be physical at all.

The word "spiritual" in 1 Corinthians 15 comes from the Greek "pneuma." But the word is pneumatikos. Greek adjectives that end in -kos do not describe the substance out of which something is made. They describe the force that is animating the thing in question. It's the difference between saying on the one hand, "Is this a wooden ship or a steel ship?" and saying on the other hand, "Is this a nuclear-powered ship or a steam-powered ship?" And the sort of adjective it is of the latter type, it's a spirit-powered body.

But it's still a ship.

Exactly! But it's still a body. And generations of readers have been misled-particularly by the RSV and the NRSV-into thinking that the distinction Paul is making is between a physical body, in the sense of something you can actually get a grip on, and a spiritual body, in the platonic sense of something you couldn't get a grip on....

....Going back to 1 Cor. 15, Paul says [we] begin with one sort of body and then it is another sort of body. The word he uses for the first sort, which is translated in the RSV and NRSV as "physical," actually there cannot mean physical. It is a bizarre mistranslation to say "physical" there.

The first word is a word formed out of "psyche"--which is the word for "soul." If you wanted to say in the ancient world that something was non-physical, you might use the word psychekon. The point is that the present body is a body animated by the ordinary human soul, and the future body will be a body animated by God's spirit and hence not corruptible.

On the same thread:

I've been listening to an Eastern Orthodox guy's lectures on Church History. In one of them, Jeff McDonald (the guy) explains that, in 1 Cor. 15, Paul is addressing Platonic ideas (as opposed to gnostic, btw). The Platonists, who were influential in Corinth, did not believe in a physical (bodily) resurrection. The spirit, in Platonic thought, was "released from matter," (the body which was considered evil), at death. Platonists believed in a kind of "spiritual resurrection" where one's spirit would leave its body (the material realm is evil) and ascend back up into the "pure spiritual realm."

Paul says, "It [the dead physical body] is raised a spiritual body." N.T. Wright explains this as: The resurrection body is "animated by [the Holy] Spirit" (and I think he's nailed Paul on this). So, in Platonic thought; there was no such thing as a "spiritual body." Only the spirit exists after physical life...as many Christians also wrongly believe they "will be in heaven forever" (without their bodies)....

If I'm not mistaken, the Jeff McDonald lecture was on Origen and/or Clement of Alexandria; both of these men were influenced by Platonic thought. His talks on Augustine & the Reformation are excellent also(in terms of Calvinism).

I also recommend N.T. Wright on "Can a Scientist Believe in the Resurrection?" where Wright discusses not just the resurrection of Jesus but the resurrection body itself. He elaborates on what's in the Beliefnet interview. URL: http://www.jamesgregory.org/tom_wright.php
For lots & lots of further info, N.T. Wright's website: http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
I'm loading "Resurrection and the Future World" and "God's Restorative Program" now (dialup)........................................Take care,

[RickC]

Hello Allyn.
Just wondering if you could give some reasons for why you've gone full-preterist. I mean, what were some of the things that "clinched it" for you? I've always been curious about this view and why people hold it. I'd love to hear from you on this Allyn.

Me again.

So what do we have here so far? Several sub-topics!

And, Allyn, I want to give you the freedom to reply to Sean and whoever at your leisure (rather than 'bombard' you with stuff!),

Since we agreed I could post "problem texts" for full-preterism...I'll post them soon, starting with Thessalonians.

I'm relistening to the NTW talk now (linked to in my last post). Right at about 20 minutes is when he delves into the nature of the resurrected body. Btw, the Mike Licona/Elaine Pagels talk linked to @ the FBFF thread goes into the same. I'll also reread your Resurrection article to put things in perspective (long nite @ work). Be back later. Thanks,

[Allyn]

Hello Allyn.
Just wondering if you could give some reasons for why you've gone full-preterist. I mean, what were some of the things that "clinched it" for you? I've always been curious about this view and why people hold it. I'd love to hear from you on this Allyn.

Hi Sean,

I wanted to get back to you before the question got lost as the thread grows longer.

What clinched it for me was basically one thing and that was how could I deny it? I tried to find all kinds of reasons why the text didn't really mean what it said but yet there it was and far be it from me to not believe the words. Now that I have been doing even more thorough studies I can say that I am even more convinced. Sean, it isn't just one paticular thing that did it for me but a process.

I really hope some hard questions will be asked so that I can demonstrate that process little by little. One of two things will happen - 1) I will fall flat on my face or 2) My position will become even firmer.

[Sean]

Hi Sean,

I wanted to get back to you before the question got lost as the thread grows longer.

What clinched it for me was basically one thing and that was how could I deny it? I tried to find all kinds of reasons why the text didn't really mean what it said but yet there it was and far be it from me to not believe the words. Now that I have been doing even more thorough studies I can say that I am even more convinced. Sean, it isn't just one paticular thing that did it for me but a process.

I really hope some hard questions will be asked so that I can demonstrate that process little by little. One of two things will happen - 1) I will fall flat on my face or 2) My position will become even firmer.

Thanks Allyn, I thought you might say that. I think my question was way to vague and/or general.

Maybe some more specific questions:
Why have you reached the conclusion that this physical world will not be renewed and brought under subjection to the King?
If Adam and Eve brought sin and death into the (physical) world, why would this not be restored it the bible seems to give that idea that it will be. I mean, if we live on in a non-material way, and this "cursed earth" is still cursed with thorns, thistles, pain during childbirth, sickness and death then why is it said these things would be "defeated"? An answer like "Well, after we die all that will be over with" just doesn't make sense to me, since all of those things that came as a result of the fall are still in effect. I just don't get it.

What do you make of:
"Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

I'm still waiting for the kingdom to come (fully) and God's will to be done on earth as it (apparetly) is done in heaven.

[Allyn]

Thanks Allyn, I thought you might say that. I think my question was way to vague and/or general.

Maybe some more specific questions:
Why have you reached the conclusion that this physical world will not be renewed and brought under subjection to the King?
If Adam and Eve brought sin and death into the (physical) world, why would this not be restored it the bible seems to give that idea that it will be. I mean, if we live on in a non-material way, and this "cursed earth" is still cursed with thorns, thistles, pain during childbirth, sickness and death then why is it said these things would be "defeated"? An answer like "Well, after we die all that will be over with" just doesn't make sense to me, since all of those things that came as a result of the fall are still in effect. I just don't get it.

We have three mentions in the Bible of the New Heavens and New Earth - Isaiah 65, 2Peter, and Revelation - right? All three of these mentions are one and the same. So since that is the case we need to go to the one that best describes the event and I think we can find that best description in Isaiah 65. That prophetic account does not tell of a time when earth will be destroyed and all started over from scratch but instead describes how, because of the Gospel, the earth is transformed. It is all in relation to the Kingdom of God.

If you read Isaiah 65 and 66 you will notice that before God creates the new heavens and a new earth, He will pour out His wrath against Jerusalem, His rebellious people (Isa. 65:1-7, 11-17; 66:3-6, 15-18, 24). When God created the new heavens and earth, notice that the physical death will remain (Isa. 65:20, 66:24), home construction and agriculture will continue (Isa. 65:21-22), we will have descendants (Isa. 65:23, 66:22), the Lord will hear their prayers (Isa. 65:24),there will be evangelism (Isa. 66:19). The new heavens and earth therefore, cannot be referring to the eternal state; it must be referring to a period in human history. This is the period of the Kingdom of God which Christ rules in the hearts of the believers. The Kingdom of God is made without hands (spiritual - Dan. 2:34, 44-45; c.f. Col. 2:10-11). If we take the statements from the scriptures at face value, then we should conclude that the first heavens and the first earth passed away and was replaced by the glorious reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, the kingdom without end. Notice that in this New Heaven and earth righteousness dwells, as it does in the New Covenant.

What do you make of:
"Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

I'm still waiting for the kingdom to come (fully) and God's will to be done on earth as it (apparetly) is done in heaven.

It is now being accomplished, Sean. God has built for himself a people who are directly involved in the task. I hope you and I are participants in this great truth.

[Sean]

We have three mentions in the Bible of the New Heavens and New Earth - Isaiah 65, 2Peter, and Revelation - right? All three of these mentions are one and the same.

I'm one of those who doesn't think these are talking about the same thing. And even if I did, I don't think I would use the Isaiah passage to interpret the other two. Peter mentioned in 2 Peter 3 that just as there was the flood of Noah's day there will be a destruction by fire, to destroy the wicked. Peter wrote this letter to those who read Paul's letters (as he so states at the end of the letter) which to me means Gentiles. I don't see why Peter would be warning of "mockers" asking where this so called judgment is if it only involved Jerusalem. I guess it could be, it just seems unlikely. Especially since the flood of Noah encompassed all flesh, and Paul states in 1 Thes 5 that the wicked will not escape. I don't know if I can see Paul only speaking about the wicked Jews, even though I admit he does focus on them in 1 Thes 2:15-16.

Also, I don't believe Isaiah mentions the new heavens and earth as a place of righteousness (but the two NT references do). Rather, he seems to mention sinners and even death of a 100 year old child, none of which make much sense in literal terms. The two NT references mention no more death at all, and a place where the wicked do not enter. So I don't see these as parallel, even though similar wording is used.

What do you make of:
"Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

I'm still waiting for the kingdom to come (fully) and God's will to be done on earth as it (apparetly) is done in heaven.

It is now being accomplished, Sean. God has built for himself a people who are directly involved in the task. I hope you and I are participants in this great truth.

I guess I'm just wondering what a full preterist thinks is going to happen here on earth if there is not going to be a restoration of all things (physical). Apparently you do see the word coming under the Lordship of Jesus then?

[RickC]

Allyn,

I see you and Sean have dialog going. I may join in on points raised soon. For now....
I found some notes I used on an FBFF thread on Thessalonians and rearranged them for this post.

The Thessalonican Letters do not support full-preterism, imo. I believe they disprove it.

I've repeated certain texts in a "summary" of Paul's 1 & 2 Thessalonians teaching below.
All texts from NIV.
(1 Thess 2:14, 15)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Notice that God's wrath had come in the present tense upon the persecutors of the Thessalonian Christians. But was this their final judgment? No, though they had already been judged as the enemies of God.

Now a section from 2 Thessalonians for context. Note how the very same persecutors Paul mentioned in his first letter had a future judgment and destruction (in bold for emphasis).

(2 Th 1)
3We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing. 4Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

A Summary of Paul's Eschatology Teaching in the Thessalonian Letters, (bold for emphasis)
(2 Th 2:1a)
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....

(1Th 4)
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words (1 Th 4:16-18).

(1 Th 5)
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction (2 Th 2:3).
6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Th 1:6).
on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed (2 Th1:10a)---{the dead in Christ will rise first}---17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:16b, 17)---This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you (2 Th 1:10).
11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing (1 Th 5:11)

At the Day of the Lord/rapture, the dead in Christ will be raised. Living believers will meet them and the Lord in the air. Then Jesus will be marveled at by all who have (ever) believed, not just the Thessalonian Christians. Then he will punish with retribution those who deserve it including the Thessalonian Jews Paul wrote about.

The Thessalonian letters teach one future Day of the Lord/rapture/final judgment: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...the dead in Christ will rise first...we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...[when Jesus will be] marveled at and glorified among all those who have believed...[when] God "will pay back trouble to those who trouble you."
________________

Questions for Allyn

Have these events happened?

When did the Thessalonian believers receive comfort and get relief in the face to face physical presence of Christ?

When were they raptured, both the living and dead?

When did the persecutors in Thessalonica get punished, eternally destroyed, and "shut out from his {Christ's} presence" forever?

Did Jesus appear with his angels in flaming fire over Thessalonica?
(I looked and haven't been able to find out how much---or even if?---the Jews there were affected by 70AD).

Has every believer of all time marveled the actual {physical} Lord Jesus Christ himself?
(Paul said this is going to happen---at the very same time Christ judges and destroys God's enemies).

On what date did all believers of all time glorify Christ, seeing him literally and physically?
How can people who aren't yet Christians do that?
(Remember, Paul describes this as a one time event)....

Lastly, have or do you plan to listen to and/or read N.T. Wright on these topics?
_______________

That's all I have for now, Thanks,

[Allyn]

Hi Rick,

I don't have much time to listen to anything new right now but I will deal with objections NT Wright has that you feel you would like to present to me. I may not have an answer but I will try.

Concerning the rapture, the Second Coming of Christ and all related events were predicted to occur in the first century. Along with Christ’s return, the Resurrection of the Dead, and the Judgment, Paul predicted a so-called “rapture”:

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16, 17, NASB throughout.)

What was the Rapture supposed to be?

The first-century living Christians were predicted to experience several things. They would see Jesus at his return:

Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matt. 16:28)

As they rose into the air to meet Jesus in the clouds, their physical bodies would be instantly transformed to be like Christ’s glorious body:

20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory… (Phil 3:20, 21)

We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (1 John 3:2b)

50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. (1 Cor. 15:50-53)

They would be the bride at a wedding ceremony in heaven to take place immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem:

2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:2, 3)

(This is first-century wedding imagery. A groom would purchase a bride, return to his father’s house to build an addition for himself and his bride, then, return to the bride’s house at midnight to take her back to their new dwelling.)

7…the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready…’” (Matt. 22:7, 8)

Notice also, the wedding in Matthew 25 immediately follows the destruction of Jerusalem in chapter 24. We see the same thing in Revelation 19: the destruction of the harlot (the Jews) in verses 1-6; the marriage of the lamb in verses 7-10.

If we believe Jesus and Paul, we must believe that the first-century Christians experienced everything listed above. Some preterists maintain there was no literal rapture; all this is simply “cloud imagery” commonly associated with visitations from God in the Old Testament. They claim the living Christians simply lived out their normal life spans, and then, entered heaven. There are several problems with this scenario:

The living Christians did not actually see Christ;
Their bodies were not transformed;
They were absent for their own wedding; the bridegroom returned, but failed to pick up his bride.
At Christ’s ascension, he rose into a literal cloud and disappeared into the spirit realm. He was predicted to return “in just the same way” (Acts 1:11). This requires a literal cloud.

Maybe you and others call a first century rapture “bizarre”, not sure you do, but of course, it is bizarre; the Bible is filled with bizarre events; like the creation of Adam from dirt, the parting of the Red Sea, Elijah’s floating axe head, and Christ’s resurrection, just to name a few. How is the Rapture any different? People of faith believe these things, bizarre or not.

Some have protested, “But there’s no proof a rapture took place.” That depends on what one considers proof. For some, the fact that Jesus, the apostles, and Scripture predicted events to take place in the first century is proof enough they occurred. There are certainly valid and somewhat puzzling questions surrounding the circumstances of the Rapture; however, they should not affect our acceptance of its occurrence.

[psychohmike]

I'm not opposed to a first century rapture. Especially when you consider the whole of the tumultuous events that took place in 7O A.D. If a remnant of faithful Christians disappeared...Who would really notice it. Especially considering the amount of people that would have looked just like those Christians that would have died during the Jewish wars. Supposedly some 1.1 million Jews.

I'm not dogmatic one way or the other. But I don't find if necessarily unreasonable...Considering all of the other supernatural events that just don't make a lot of sense in the natural sense.

Pmike

[Allyn]

I'm not opposed to a first century rapture. Especially when you consider the whole of the tumultuous events that took place in 7O A.D. If a remnant of faithful Christians disappeared...Who would really notice it. Especially considering the amount of people that would have looked just like those Christians that would have died during the Jewish wars. Supposedly some 1.1 million Jews.

I'm not dogmatic one way or the other. But I don't find if necessarily unreasonable...Considering all of the other supernatural events that just don't make a lot of sense in the natural sense.

Pmike

I think it is a good question, however, for a skeptic to ask - "If all the Christians were raptured by 70AD how did the church emerge after it?"

1) Although the church had spread across the Roman Empire, chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation indicate Jesus was not pleased with a significant number of people in His church. To the church at Sardis He said, “Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you” (Rev. 3:3). The warnings contained in these chapters indicate the number of people raptured may have been smaller than what we might have thought, and many who assumed they were good Christians on solid ground were likely unaware they had totally missed the event. In the second century, we find Christians still predicting a return of Christ even though the deadline for the event had long passed. We find no evidence any Christian writers considered the Second Coming to have already taken place. This is a major problem for preterists who suggest the truly converted Christians lived beyond 70AD. The complete absence of early commentary on fulfilled eschatological events is explained only by the literal-rapture view.

(In The Shepherd of Hermas, the writer, aware the deadline had passed, struggles to reconcile the perceived lack of fulfillment by suggesting Jesus didn’t return on schedule because the church wasn’t ready. This document was highly regarded by Christians for 200 years. It was accepted as Scripture by Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and others, and was included in the fourth-century manuscript Codex Sinaiticus on which our modern New Testaments are largely based.)


2) Jesus said he would return as “a thief in the night” (Matt. 24:43; 1 Thess. 5:2). In Matthew 25, He portrayed himself as a bridegroom returning at midnight (as was the custom). Christians don’t seem to picture the Rapture taking place in the middle of the night. Most modern depictions have it occurring in broad daylight. However, given the allusions to a nighttime return, we are inclined to suspect the Rapture occurred under cover of darkness, in which case it is well within the realm of possibility it was not witnessed by anyone.


3) The lack of historical evidence begins to make more sense when we remember that the Roman Empire was in a state of utter chaos during the years leading up to the Second Coming. Jesus was taking vengeance, not only upon the Jews, but the whole world, i.e., the Roman Empire. After the death of Nero in June of 68AD, the empire degenerated into civil war. The year 69 saw four emperors. Galba was butchered, Otho committed suicide, and Vitellius was beheaded. Barbarians pressed in against the frontier, and Rome’s legions battled one another in the city streets and throughout the empire. Jews were being slaughtered by the thousands all over the empire. During such a chaotic time as this, when disappearances would have been commonplace, it is not difficult to imagine how the Rapture might have gone virtually unnoticed, especially, as we have said, if it occurred in the middle of the night. If it was noticed at all, it is doubtful the disappearance of some “heretic” Christians, many of whom would have been in hiding, would have made it into the historical record.