"spiritual death" & "eternal separation from God": biblical?

[Michelle]

Do you understand my frustration?

Not really. Are you frustrated by the responses you got, or are you frustrated in trying to find a place to discuss this?

[RickC]

Don,

I almost wish I had just done a thread on: "spiritual death": is this concept biblical?
That way, we would have kept things simpler, started at an easier-to-understand beginning.

You replied:
So why not change the title even now by editing your initial post?

That's an idea, Don.
However, one paragraph in particular from Glenn Peoples contains "all" I want to discuss, at least in terms of beginning the discussion. But in In it he mentions 3 things: "spiritual death", "spiritual separation [from God]," and "eternal separation from God." Here's that paragraph from Glenn Peoples' audio (which I listened to and typed out):

I'm fairly confident that, from time to time, you've heard pastors or theologians commenting on God's sentence: "you shall surely die." In all likelihood you will have heard people talking about why Adam did not drop dead on that very day? And the answer is given that Adam entered into a state of "spiritual death" from that very day. And for this reason we're sometimes told that verses like Romans 3:23, "the wages of sin is death," refer to something far more dreadful than mere dying, but rather to "spiritual separation" and, ultimately, "eternal separation from God."

Note: I omitted one sentence for simplification.

These are things we have been taught to believe. It could be that too much is said in Glenn's paragraph; that too much is in it to discuss on one thread? I feel like I understand everything Glenn said. Others may not, I don't know....

I think I'd rather just start a whole new thread than edit my first post. But I also feel like I owe some replies here. Especially on what I'm targeting.
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Michelle,

Do you understand my frustration?

You replied:
Not really. Are you frustrated by the responses you got, or are you frustrated in trying to find a place to discuss this?

I'm not exactly "frustrated" by the replies. It's closer to:

Do you all see where I'm coming from?

I don't know if everyone who has replied so far knows where I'm coming from.
To explain why I feel like this, I would need to make individual replies.
For now, I suppose I'll go ahead and do so on this thread.
This will take a considerable amount of time...and I may not get to it right away.

So, right now: No new thread.
Maybe later?

One problem might be is that I clearly understand what Glenn said. I don't know if others do. So this puts me in a position of 1) wondering if I may need to explain what Glenn said first, before I could then, 2) discuss the topic at hand.

Something helpful for me in the meantime would be to ask:
1) Do you understand the above paragraph from Glenn Peoples?
(Whether one agrees with his view of conditional immortality is not in question).
2) Was Glenn right in his summary that "these 3 things" are what many, if not most of us have been taught to believe?
3) Do you think the 3 things Glenn mentioned: "spiritual death," "spiritual separation [from God]," and "eternal separation from God" are what the Bible teaches?
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I'll go ahead and answer them.
1) Yes, I understand what Glenn said.
2) From my experience, many Christians, including myself, have been taught to believe these 3 things and many continue to believe in them.
3) No, I do not believe any of these 3 things are taught in the Bible. They are popular beliefs I believed at one time; I "inherited" those beliefs; believing them "by default," not knowing anything else.
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Thanks for the replies, suggestions, and questions.
I'll reply back to other individuals soon.
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Last Note: Since the concept of "spiritual death" is said to be a thing that originally happened in the past, occurring first in Adam; it may indeed be better to start a new thread; limiting the discussion to that-alone.
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Have a good evening/day,

[RickC]

Individual reply to Douglas.

Hi Rick, excellent topic!

two verses that do come to mind in particular regarding Spiritual resurrection off the top of my head.

1. Eph 2:1 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,”

2. Col 2:13 “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins”

So God makes us alive in some sense, and since I am already physically alive, I assumed this is a spiritual birth. Like when Jesus told Nickodemus that we must be born again. And since Adam initially was without sin, he did not need to be "born again" I assume, at least not until he sinned and then something happened.... Which most Christians I know have been taught was a spiritual death. So if someone desires to come to Christ, they must be born again, which logically means that they are dead to start with. Right? So the life and death spoken of in the above verses I assume are talking about a spiritual nature instead of a physical one.

In regards to the "eternal conscious separation from God" aspect you are talking about, I am in about the same boat as you I think. I tend to believe if one dies without being "in Christ" then they most likely end up in a state of non-existence as opposed to eternal conscious torment. Although I am not sure exactly what happens, I know it is bad.

What do you think?

Thanks for your reply, Douglas.

I take it you don't agree with those who say people experience "spiritual death," and that this ultimately leads to "eternal separation from God." If so, we agree on both points.
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Eph 2:1 and Col 2:13.
Neither of these verses say anything about anyone having been in a former state of "spiritual death." But you mention a "spiritual resurrection." I think I may know what you mean by this; you link it to the "new birth" {or being born-again}, if I'm not mistaken.
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Re: "God makes us alive in some sense."
Paul said it simply: "And you He [God] made alive" and "God made you alive with Christ." Paul just said we're made alive. I take him at his word on that, as I'm sure you do too! But the thing of it is: Sure, there's "some sense" in which God has done this. But Paul doesn't explain any separate "senses" about this. He just says it has happened.

Re: "So God makes us alive in some sense, and since I am already physically alive, I assumed this is a spiritual birth."
Are you saying: "My body was alive so it didn't need to be made alive?"
Do you think that the "spiritual birth" is only one kind of "sense" of being made alive in Christ? If so, I wonder how many more "senses" you think there might be?

The Bible presents "being made alive in Christ" as one thing, yet with several dimensions: Would you agree with this statement?
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I believe in "being born again" {or in the doctrine of regeneration}.

But I have unconventional ideas on what Jesus and Nicodemus were talking about; what "being born again" meant in Jesus' and Nicodemus' conversation. IMO, the being born-again {or born-from-above} that Jesus spoke of to Nicodemus was referring to a special working of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers in God. Nicodemus, being a believer in God and in the faithful remnant of Israel, came to Jesus, knowing He was a man of God and was seeking to be taught. Though he had not, as of yet, been "born from above {or born-again}," Nicodemus was taught by Jesus he needed to be. And from what else we know about Nicodemus, he probably did "get born again." Why? Because he was already saved and in the faithful remnant of the house of Israel. In short, the being "born again" these two were talking about was a special regenerative and/or reformative working of the Holy Spirit among those who already believed in the God of Israel, imo.
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Back to your "spiritual resurrection."
What was the former state of those have experienced this?
How would you describe their former state from the passages you cited?
{Btw, I realize you're possibly referring Jesus' teaching in John's Gospel also; I'm just going with the verses you cited here}....
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Here is an explanation that was given to me regarding the the statement "in death you shall die" - saying that Adam is already dying physically as God made him to ('in death'), but that he will die spiritually as well when eating the fruit ('you shall die')

Where does the Bible say that there is more than one death?
"The wages of sin is death," Romans 3:23.
That's one death [sentence] in the Bible.

Where does the Bible say that anyone has ever "died spiritually"?
I don't know of a single instance....

I can grant that Adam's human spirit took the wrong course.
But in the Bible what we do "with" our spirits" is what "we" do.
There's no separation between what we do in or with our bodies...and...what we do with or in our spirits or souls.

Adam's spirit took the wrong course.
His soul took the wrong course.
His body took the wrong course.
These last 3 sentences are saying the same thing, imo!
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I'm not trying to give you a hard time, Douglas....
Just having conversation, Brother!
You don't have to answer every single question...you can sum it up, like, if you want.
Thanks,

[RickC]

TK,

douglas wrote:

Although I am not sure exactly what happens, I know it is bad.

i didnt read all of rick's links (yet), but i read an article a while back by edward fudge called "the final end of the wicked" or something like that. his version of annihilationism is some form of conscious torment for the unbelievers until they have been punished enough, then they are "wiped out."

i am not sure if there is an alternate version which states that when an unbeliever dies, he is simply annihilated at that point w/o any conscious punishment. if this is the way it really is, it wouldn't be "bad" to the dead person because they would have no consciousness of anything. however, i suppose it might be bad in the sense that they will miss out on the glories of eternity with God. but of course it they are annihilated they wont be thinking about that too much.

Thanks for your reply, Bro!

Again, I'm not focusing in or targeting "Views of Hell" on this thread.
My "push" is toward the doctrine of anthropology.

True, I believe that views other than mine, (conditional immortality), are incorrect. A main reason I think this is because other views have a faulty anthropology, imo. I don't think the Bible teaches the immortality of the soul; that is, of every soul. Many, though not all, who do believe in the unconditional immortality of every soul begin with the belief that a human soul or spirit can somehow "die partially {or is it fully?}" during this lifetime: That they experience a "spiritual death" where some (supposed) "section" inside of them, namely the human spirit, gets messed up and somehow "dies" in some way.

I do believe the [human] spirits of the wicked will die. But the wicked will die completely, in the entirety of their persons: body, soul, and spirit. The one death the Bible talks about, (Romans 3:23), will happen to the wicked who will die that one death: when all of these (supposed) "separate sections" that people (supposedly) "have" will be-no-more.

The belief that people experience a "spiritual death" during their lifetimes, beginning with Adam onward, is something I just don't see in the scriptures. The Bible does say that "in Adam all die." But this death is a complete death [sentence] involving everything human beings are composed of. It is also the only death sentence in the Bible: A sentence we're all condemned under unless we're in Christ. The death sentence will be carried out when Jesus returns in judgment.

I'm really not trying to "debate views about hell" here. It''s just a consequential side-topic that came up.

Thanks, TK,

[RickC]

Mike,

Praise God for the translators. But they also end up hiding some interesting ideas.

It is interesting seeing the passage as saying "In dying you shall die" This makes a big difference in the idea conveyed....

...Now this verse about "in dying you shall die" is not my main focus now, nor is it about existence of the unsaved after death.

I had been thinking on the idea of "spiritual death" as an effect of the fall. This has been a doctrine of mine recently but there question arose about the basis for this doctrine. There does appear to be a strong basis that mankind does not have life until coming to Christ Jesus. This is implied in that controversial passage of John 11:24-26 (i.e. controversial as being part of an earlier discussion). But also there is the passage in John 10:10 showing that they didn't have life but could receive it
10:10 "The thief only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly"

I'm still not sure what-all people mean by "spiritual death."
From what I've gathered it's: nonsense to me....
{I used to say I believed in it myself...but don't think I knew what I was talking about!},

But outside of that, I think I'm following you...{keep going}.....

It seems even that Adam could have been experiencing true life but then he lost that in the fall since he never was promised eternal life. The different translation at first appeared to mess up my idea about the implications of resurrection in Genesis 2 and 3 but now actually seems to give more life to the idea.

Genesis 2 and 3 present Adam and Eve as in a preemptive or primordial state of existence. What choice they made would determine if they would live forever. We know the choice they made....

There also are the variety of references to life and death in the New Testament that would confirm the idea that we are spiritually dead until coming to Christ. The ones quoted in a previous response are valid. Also, Romans 8 there is the idea that life is given to us in our spirit upon becoming a believer:
8:10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

What do you mean by "we are spiritually dead until the coming of Christ"?
OT saints got filled with God's Spirit.
In what sense can they be said to have been "spiritually dead"?

Adam obeyed God, doing what God told him to do --- after he fell into sin.
Certainly Adam wasn't "spiritually dead" also, was he?
If he was "spiritually dead," how could he have done what God told him to do?
How could he have even heard, leave alone understood, what God said?
{I hope no Calvinists see this...their arguments are silly, imo...but I make a point}!

How can a person be alive if her/his spirit isn't? Impossible!

Re: Romans 8:10-11.
You say "life was given to us in our spirit upon becoming a believer."
So are you saying that our spirits are alive but our bodies aren't?
That we're merely "spiritually alive"?
Haven't our bodies been given the life of Christ?
Is this dude sitting here in front of his computer {me, Rick, in my body, sitting right here}; have I only gotten some kind of "spiritual salvation" or "spirit-salvation" that doesn't "apply" to my physical-me? I don't think so.

Verse 11 says the life of Christ has been given to us; that this life includes life to our mortal bodies. So are our mortal bodies excluded from the life that Christ has given us? The Gnostics and others have said so.
But the Bible writers absolutely did not, imnsho!
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Btw, I edit posts a lot because I don't have a spell-checker in Word. For every error I have to correct, I then have to copy & paste it back to Word {if I'm saving my posts}. I also edit thoughts in after I make posts and/or try to refine them. I sent TK a PM that had, like, 50 "new thoughts" edits! , cept TK only got one PM, whew for him!

Thanks, Mike,

P.S. After some feedback, maybe we could or should start a new thread....

Thanks for reading, all!

[Paidion]

Does it help the discussion in any way to realize that the primary meaning of γενναω is "produce" or "generate" or "beget" and not "give birth ". Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be produced again" or "you must be generated again" or "You must be begotten again."

In the geneology of Mathew 1, the verb γενναω is used. it would be most bizarre to translate "Abraham give birth to Isaac, and Isaac gave birth to Jacob, etc."

In the following passage, NO translator translates the word in it's passive voice as "born". Most of them translate the word as "conceived", although a few translate it as "begotten".

But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit..." Matthew 1:20

Most translators translate the word as "begotten" in the following passages:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead... NKJV

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. NKJV

Strangely enough, in the following verse, the King James translators translated the word as "born" in the first occurence and "begotten" in the second:

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. AV

[mikew]

Mike,

...snip...
But also there is the passage in John 10:10 showing that they didn't have life but could receive it
10:10 "The thief only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly"

I'm still not sure what-all people mean by "spiritual death."
From what I've gathered it's: nonsense to me....
{I used to say I believed in it myself...but don't think I knew what I was talking about!},

But outside of that, I think I'm following you...{keep going}.....

Right. When someone uses the word "spiritual" in any sense, I don't know if they just mean "invisible" or if they have some other meaning in mind.

What I meant to show in John 10:10 is that "life" is something added to us when becoming a believer.

Then we can check whether the scripture describes this life. Such life is apparently explained in Joh 17:3
17:3 "This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

I see this being explained yet still being a mystery. But the thought here is that "life" isn't simply breathing and walking, but life is a state of existence with God. And though Cain encountered God after murdering Abel, it wasn't the same as Adam had before the fall.
It could be seen that Eden was an analogy about Adam's relationship with God and Adam's relationship with this unclear item called "life."

When Adam was created, God breathed life into him and Adam was made in the image of God. That image or maybe even that "life" was lost after the fall. Adam's children were born after Adam's image (Gen 5:3). It may be that the "life" was missing.

It seems even that Adam could have been experiencing true life but then he lost that in the fall since he never was promised eternal life. The different translation at first appeared to mess up my idea about the implications of resurrection in Genesis 2 and 3 but now actually seems to give more life to the idea.

Genesis 2 and 3 present Adam and Eve as in a preemptive or primordial state of existence. What choice they made would determine if they would live forever. We know the choice they made....

They didn't choose life.
Even in Deuteronomy, the people are told to choose life. (Deut 30:19)
The Zombie movies are for real. j/k

There also are the variety of references to life and death in the New Testament that would confirm the idea that we are spiritually dead until coming to Christ. The ones quoted in a previous response are valid. Also, Romans 8 there is the idea that life is given to us in our spirit upon becoming a believer:
8:10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 8:11 But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

What do you mean by "we are spiritually dead until the coming of Christ"?
OT saints got filled with God's Spirit.
In what sense can they be said to have been "spiritually dead"?

ahem. I said "coming to Christ"
The inverse of Rom 8:10 is to say that apart from righteousness the spirit is dead (It seems that Paul is speaking of our spirit in this sense).
So this may be a case where "spiritual death" has meaning. Now to me this would mean "lack of life" and not ever that there was a transition from life to death. The better phrase here would be "spiritual deadness" or Pascal's "God shaped vacuum."

But let's not get into the OT saint discussion since that would complicate matters. We just know that they could choose life -- it may not have been as complete in development as after Christ.

Adam obeyed God, doing what God told him to do --- after he fell into sin.
Certainly Adam wasn't "spiritually dead" also, was he?
If he was "spiritually dead," how could he have done what God told him to do?
How could he have even heard, leave alone understood, what God said?
{I hope no Calvinists see this...their arguments are silly, imo...but I make a point}!

How can a person be alive if her/his spirit isn't? Impossible!

You must watch more zombie movies. Or look to the earlier answer

Re: Romans 8:10-11.
You say "life was given to us in our spirit upon becoming a believer."
So are you saying that our spirits are alive but our bodies aren't?
That we're merely "spiritually alive"?
Haven't our bodies been given the life of Christ?

I think Paul was saying that if we are purposefully sinning, this is a state that we should identify as being "dead." He was making a clear analogy or connection between sin and death -- though it seems to be an emphasis on analogy.

Is this dude sitting here in front of his computer {me, Rick, in my body, sitting right here}; have I only gotten some kind of "spiritual salvation" or "spirit-salvation" that doesn't "apply" to my physical-me? I don't think so.

You are kind of right. The real change in our bodies wasn't until the resurrection of the Last Day.

Paul wouldn't have had to correct the Romans' behavior if they were changed so as to never have fleshly desires. Paul would have been writing romantic novels instead. (sorry, I'm just in a weird mood.)

Verse 11 says the life of Christ has been given to us; that this life includes life to our mortal bodies. So are our mortal bodies excluded from the life that Christ has given us? The Gnostics and others have said so.
But the Bible writers absolutely did not, imnsho!

We have choices that help or hurt us having life in our mortal bodies. Paul nor I am saying that the physical body is evil by virtue of being physical. Paul wasn't arguing about physical reality but instead he was trying to give some foundation to help the Romans stop behaving according to the flesh.

[RickC]

Hello Don,

Does it help the discussion in any way to realize that the primary meaning of γενναω is "produce" or "generate" or "beget" and not "give birth ". Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be produced again" or "you must be generated again" or "You must be begotten again."

I don't see how it's really relevant to our discussion.
But for FYI, here's a link with translation notes and Greek word study notes re: "born again" or "born from above" in John 3:3, ff.: NeXt {NET} Bible, John 3.
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Hi Mike,

When someone uses the word "spiritual" in any sense, I don't know if they just mean "invisible" or if they have some other meaning in mind.

Jesus may have meant something along these lines on the "new birth," using the wind as an illustration.

John 3:8, NET
The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

Then we can check whether the scripture describes this life. Such life is apparently explained in Joh 17:3
17:3 "This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ."

I see this being explained yet still being a mystery. But the thought here is that "life" isn't simply breathing and walking, but life is a state of existence with God. And though Cain encountered God after murdering Abel, it wasn't the same as Adam had before the fall.
It could be seen that Eden was an analogy about Adam's relationship with God and Adam's relationship with this unclear item called "life."

When Adam was created, God breathed life into him and Adam was made in the image of God. That image or maybe even that "life" was lost after the fall. Adam's children were born after Adam's image (Gen 5:3). It may be that the "life" was missing.

Life as it is defined in the Bible seems simple to me. Of course, we aren't in the final state of it yet.

ahem. I said "coming to Christ"
The inverse of Rom 8:10 is to say that apart from righteousness the spirit is dead (It seems that Paul is speaking of our spirit in this sense).
So this may be a case where "spiritual death" has meaning. Now to me this would mean "lack of life" and not ever that there was a transition from life to death. The better phrase here would be "spiritual deadness" or Pascal's "God shaped vacuum."

Sorry about my mistake in quoting you.

Re: Romans 8:10, above; I'm sorry but I can't follow what you're saying on that.

The last paragrah.
I agree that the Bible teaches "lack of life" for those who don't have it...simple enough.
"Spiritual deadness," I don't know about either. Does that mean the spirits of unbelievers are dead? The Bible says they walk according to the spirit of the devil, of this world:

Col 2 (NASB)
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

When the Bible says people "walk" it means what living people do or live out in practice.
Christians "walk": body, soul, and spirit in accordance with God's Spirit.
The wicked "walk": body, soul, and spirit in accordance with the devil.

Frankly, I'm getting burnt out on this topic.
I might call Steve to see what he has to say on it,
Not quitting the thread...just kinda spent on the topic for now.
Thanks for the replies,