CHRISTIAN ZIONISM & ISRAEL

[Allyn]

Steve isn't rather disingenuous of you to note only what you did and not mention in the year before that 1000s of innocent Arabs who had lived in the land with title and right to the land they owned were slaughtered by the Israeli occupiers town by town? All for their precious Zionism. All of which you seem to approve of. I think I would have something to say about that too if I were the arabs.





This is not the scenerio i have heard. What i've heard is that the Arab countries announced they would be attacking Israel and informed their Arab brothers to flee Israel or risk being killed along with the jews. If atrocities happened and i'm sure that some did happen it's terrible but now we are in the year 2010 and it's time for the Palestinians to develop their economy and society which they have the opportunity to do.
Within Israel, arabs can vote,can participate in govt,can follow their religion and can run their businesses. Do we see the same basic human rights for jews in muslim countries? Why is this situation politically acceptable and nothing is ever said about it yet Israel is constantly examined under a microscope?
The "precious Zionism" you reference is the same desire every other etnic group on earth has to desire their own country , yet for only jews is it alluded to as evil.
Last thing, i often hear the jews in Israel called "unbelieving jews" yet arabs are never called "unbelieving muslims" though 99% are not christians.

Yes now is now. We cannot go back. But lets be perfectly clear - a jew is not a jew because of blood or persuasion. If a person says they are a Jew there would be no way to verify it and thus no verifiable reason to make the claim.

[steve7150]

Yes now is now. We cannot go back. But lets be perfectly clear - a jew is not a jew because of blood or persuasion. If a person says they are a Jew there would be no way to verify it and thus no verifiable reason to make the claim.




Hitler seemed to have no difficulty identifying jews and that's not that long ago. However the point of what i'm trying to explain is that i understand many non-dispensaltionals seem to dislike Israel , partly as a reaction to the over attention given to Israel by some Christians. It's not Israel's fault if dispensationals go ga ga over it, Israel did'nt request their behavior or beliefs and they (dispens) do it for their own reasons as we know.
So i hope non-dispens can look at Israel even handedly and understand every ethnic group over human history has wanted their own country and "Zionism" has been the jewish version of this desire and it took their near extermination to begin to bring it about. If you don't like the aid we give Israel , go to the ballot box, write your congressman, do whatever you have to do but Israel is not the evil empire.

[kaufmannphillips]

Allyn wrote:
Steve isn't rather disingenuous of you to note only what you did and not mention in the year before that 1000s of innocent Arabs who had lived in the land with title and right to the land they owned were slaughtered by the Israeli occupiers town by town? All for their precious Zionism. All of which you seem to approve of. I think I would have something to say about that too if I were the arabs.

Source(s), please.

Incidentally - how was Nebraska settled? And/or much of the rest of the US? All for precious motives, I'm sure. Let's damn every motive behind the American expansion - which was catastrophic for dozens of other people groups - and reorganize our society without social liberty, economic ambition, and Christian evangelism.

Allyn wrote:
But lets be perfectly clear - a jew is not a jew because of blood or persuasion. If a person says they are a Jew there would be no way to verify it and thus no verifiable reason to make the claim.

If a person says they are a Christian, there is no superior way to verify that sort of claim.

And let's be perfectly clear - you get to define what makes somebody a Jew when a Muslim gets to define what makes somebody a Christian.

[Allyn]

Yes now is now. We cannot go back. But lets be perfectly clear - a jew is not a jew because of blood or persuasion. If a person says they are a Jew there would be no way to verify it and thus no verifiable reason to make the claim.




Hitler seemed to have no difficulty identifying jews and that's not that long ago. However the point of what i'm trying to explain is that i understand many non-dispensaltionals seem to dislike Israel , partly as a reaction to the over attention given to Israel by some Christians. It's not Israel's fault if dispensationals go ga ga over it, Israel did'nt request their behavior or beliefs and they (dispens) do it for their own reasons as we know.
So i hope non-dispens can look at Israel even handedly and understand every ethnic group over human history has wanted their own country and "Zionism" has been the jewish version of this desire and it took their near extermination to begin to bring it about. If you don't like the aid we give Israel , go to the ballot box, write your congressman, do whatever you have to do but Israel is not the evil empire.

Steve, for me its not a matter of whether the Israel of today is evil, rather it is the disgusting goals the Christian Zionist has at the expense of the very types came to save. Its just not what God intended and yet lives and property are lost over this modern-day crusade based on religious motives. It disgusted me to see people bussed from one for of poverty to another just in order to get as many "jews" into the land in order to usher in the 2nd coming of Christ. These things that turn my stomach and cause heartache for the victims. These are the things I am talking about and they are going on in the Christianity all for the hope of a misguided understanding of Scripture.

[MoGrace2u]

When Jehoshaphat king of Judah joined Ahab to fight the Syrians who came against Israel - and Ahab was killed, which was according to prophecy; we hear these words to him from the prophet:

2 Chr 19:1 - And Jehoshaphat the king of Judah returned to his house in peace to Jerusalem.

2 Chr 19:2 - And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

The Syrians were sent against Israel by God because of their idolatry - and Jehoshapat in a misplaced desire for Ahab's friendship, almost got himself killed in this battle.

Israel today is in the same ungodly condition they were in when they departed from the land, and yet Christians are trying to help them regain it with a similar misplaced zeal as Jehoshaphat had for Ahab because he too discounted the word of God. And these Zionists because of their involvement are bringing terrorism from Israel's enemies against Christian nations because of it.

Israel has been judged, so why do we tempt God to bring their judgment upon ourselves? We should leave the battle to those to whom it belongs and just stick to negotiating. To do otherwise was already warned against here:

Dan 11:14 - And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

Are the Zionists actually wanting to bring Armageddon upon the world in this generation or what, as they look 'forward' to the 2nd coming of Christ? It would seem the doomsayers think their end of the world scenario just needs a little help from Israel's 'Christian friends'. How is it this has become the gospel message by which many expect to bring them to Christ?

[Lazarus43]

This thread will be devoted to the supplying of Internet links to videos, articles and other media forms for the sole purpose of informing those who are pro-Israel, whether it be directly or indirectly related to Zionism and other supporting agencies. I will not be interacting with anyone on this thread. It is strictly for information purposes only. For those interested in submitting their own links, may I ask you to PM them to me and I will add as received to my original list (for a nice neat package):

Link #01 - http://www.occupation101.com (highly recommended)
Link #02 - http://www.stephensizer.com/podcast (various materials, he has a book called Zion Christian Soldiers)
Link #03 - http://www.ifamericansknew.org (high recommend)
Link #04 - http://vimeo.com/5976685
Link #05 - http://www.withgodonourside.com/index.html (soon to be released movie)
Link #06 - http://www.christianzionism.org (especially http://www.christianzionism.org/Articles.asp)
Link #07 - http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e23997.htm (inside Britain's Israel Lobby)
Link #08 - http://globe-watch.blogspot.com/2007/12 ... -land.html (Peace and Propaganda - The Promised Land)
Link #09 - http://www.alternativeinsight.com/israe ... Part1.html (Israel's Mid-East Conflict)
Link #10 - http://whtt.org/ (We Hold These Truths)
Link #11 - http://notsylvia.wordpress.com/about-zionism/about-war (Includes the 5-part series of "Peace and Propaganda - The Promised Land")
Link #12 -

Great idea. The modern nation calling itself "Israel" is perhaps the greatest political and spiritual deception of our time.

...I came from a country occupied militarily by Israel to the land of “the free and the brave” only to find out it too was occupied politically by Israel.

The Palestinian people, holding on to whatever shred of hope they can, are counting on the day Americans see the error of their ways and change their opinion of the whole Middle East situation and understand it for what it truly is–A conquered, oppressed people living a hellish existence under a maniacal, occupying power...
-- Hesham Tillawi, PhD

*Excerpt quoted from http://heshamtillawi.wordpress.com/2009 ... c-opinion/

[steve7150]

I will not be interacting with anyone on this thread. It is strictly for information purposes only.





Sure it's only for informational purposes, of course it is. Like the guy (Hart) who denied that Iran's leader says he wants to destroy Israel claiming he was misunderstood. FYI i saw him say it twice not to mention the parades he has in Iran where soldiers line up as a missle going into Israel and destroying it along with the millions of people living there. If he could do it there is no doubt he will , which apparently will please some people on this thread who apparently have no limits to the trash and hatred they can spew on "Israel."
I can have an honest disagreement with Allyn or Homer about Israel because i know these are decent people but some of the rest of you sound like you hide behind the phrases "Zionism" or "Israel" as a thin veil to hide the fact you simply hate those "unbelieving jews." If that's the case it does'nt bother me at all, it's your problem with Christ because he forgave his accusers and some of you sound like his Spirit is not in you.

[Allyn]

I will not be interacting with anyone on this thread. It is strictly for information purposes only.





Sure it's only for informational purposes, of course it is. Like the guy (Hart) who denied that Iran's leader says he wants to destroy Israel claiming he was misunderstood. FYI i saw him say it twice not to mention the parades he has in Iran where soldiers line up as a missle going into Israel and destroying it along with the millions of people living there. If he could do it there is no doubt he will , which apparently will please some people on this thread who apparently have no limits to the trash and hatred they can spew on "Israel."
I can have an honest disagreement with Allyn or Homer about Israel because i know these are decent people but some of the rest of you sound like you hide behind the phrases "Zionism" or "Israel" as a thin veil to hide the fact you simply hate those "unbelieving jews." If that's the case it does'nt bother me at all, it's your problem with Christ because he forgave his accusers and some of you sound like his Spirit is not in you.

I'm just curious Steve, and if you claimed this earlier, I missed it, but do you understand Romans 11 where all Israel will be saved as a yet future thing and if so how far would you take that word "all"?

[steve7150]

I'm just curious Steve, and if you claimed this earlier, I missed it, but do you understand Romans 11 where all Israel will be saved as a yet future thing and if so how far would you take that word "all"?




Hi Allyn,

I've heard Steve's lecture about it and if memory serves me he referenced where it says "therefore all Israel will be saved" really means "in this way Israel will be saved" meaning that "Israel" from a biblical perspective transforms into the believers in Christ and in this way Israel will be saved. Certainly makes sense to me . Paul does make other statements about natural Israel like their stumbling lead to riches for the gentiles and their blindness benefited the gentiles but i'm not sure if it's by design or not.

[kaufmannphillips]

MoGrace2u wrote:
Israel today is in the same ungodly condition they were in when they departed from the land, and yet Christians are trying to help them regain it with a similar misplaced zeal as Jehoshaphat had for Ahab because he too discounted the word of God. And these Zionists because of their involvement are bringing terrorism from Israel's enemies against Christian nations because of it.

(a) What "same ungodly condition" are you referring to?

(b) What "discount[ing of] the word of God" are you referring to?

(c) One would have to be quite naive to imagine that the absence of Israel would resolve anti-Western activity in the Middle East. Reactionary elements in the Middle East have issues with Western political meddling in their region, Western economic incursion, and the intrusion of Western secular culture. Israel is the tip of the iceberg - an eminent icon of how the West has impinged on their turf. If (heaven forfend) the Western world went in and dismantled the state of Israel, reactionary elements would move to the next items on their list of grievances against Western culture. And when they ran out of grievances, there's a chance that their bullet-points would shift from the defensive to the offensive. It can be hard for an activist to hang up their spurs, if all they know is activism.

Make no mistake about it - what we are experiencing is the upheaval of a culture war in the Middle East. This sort of thing happens over and over in human history. The major reason this looms so large is the factor of petroleum, which draws worldwide interest, and which underwrites reactionary partisans.