Let's play "Take the Challenge"

[benstenson]

Ben wrote:

It must be embarrassing to Lewis because he expects that the future is all settled in advance, set in stone, exhaustively foreknown, etc.

Actually, CS didnt believe this (at least he didn't in Mere Christianity)-- just wanted to clarify.

TK

Wow, thanks, that'd be a surprise to me. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. Why else would he find a possibly failed prophecy embarrassing? Do you have a quote from him on that? [edit: nevermind (google)]

[benstenson]

he expects that the future is all settled in advance, set in stone, exhaustively foreknown, etc.

CS didnt believe this

Do you have a quote from him on that?

Ok, I found it,

"Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them." ~ Clive (Mere Christianity, Book IV Chapter 3)

But he also says,

"Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow." - same source
"He knows your tomorrow's actions" - same
"'tomorrow' is visible to Him" - same

He was trying to make room for free-will in a fatalistic worldview by saying that the future exists and change is an illusion. So he retains my 'benefit of the doubt' because of his view of omniscience/"fore"knowledge. However, he should have questioned his view of omniscience and/or eschatology rather than saying a prophecy was an embarrassment...

[Mellontes]

..The time had come, the time had been fulfilled
..For those who believe in a delay, it means that everything would have to be fulfilled again.
..problem is the definite nearness of the last days to that first century church.

What I am thinking is that just because the time came does not mean that everything was fulfilled.

I think you misunderstand what was meant by "the time had been fulfilled." I will assume that when you said "does not mean that everything was fulfilled" you applied it to ALL prophecy being fulfilled. And I quite agree. It certainly wasn't in reference to all prophecy, just the prophecy which had brought Jesus Christ to the fore. All (or most) of the prophets had predicted this time. The time had come for the fulfillment of those PARTICULAR prophecies. This next point needs empahsis. IF THE TIME HAD BEEN FULFILLED, IT COULD NEVER BE FULFILLED AGAIN. Do you understand the power of that statement? It means that there could be no delay. If there was a delay (and there wasn't), the prophets would have had to be wrong and the time would have to be fulfilled again. I can't agree that the prophets (the true prophets) could have erred...and I don't think you can either.

The main problem is the the hermeneutic of audience relevance is not being consistently applied because...

But I'm ok with audience relevance and literal interpretation. I'm saying that things may not have been as set in stone as we might assume. When it came time to descend in flaming fire God may simply have held off because there were some people He believed could still be saved if He gave them more time.

Was 40 years, one full generation, not long enough for God to allow repentance? Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 24:34 and Matthew 16:28? He defines the time and He delivers. If God had held off, as you possibly suggest, it throws out all the OT prophets who prophesied of this time, like Daniel's fourth kingdom, for instance.

..the presuppositional NATURE of the last days is governing the paradigm.

Yeah, some of the things that are said about the end times seem so literal. I have not done a major study on this, but making everything figurative seems like a real stretch in some cases. But partial preterism seems possible to me because I can see how some thing might be figurative.

But we don't make EVERYTHING figurative. Can you give me an example of what you believe is not figurative when we say it is figurative? A broad-sweeping generalization is not good enough. Please state the verse as well. Some things are figurative because the Scriptures say thay are figurative. Statements like "at hand," "near," "nigh," and "shortly must come to pass" are NOT figurative - but to futurists these are like wavering "in the wind" hazy hallucinations that could happen to any generation at any time...

btw Do you believe in a literal physical resurrection?

Sure, why wouldn't I? Lazarus was raised from the dead but curiously enough, he was NOT classified as the first fruits of the dead...Your question is not nearly as specific as it should have been, was it? Please quote the reference should you wish to pursure this further.

“This is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.” (Essay; “The World’s Last Night” (1960), found in The Essential C.S. Lewis, p. 385)

I will always stand with the view that C.S. Lewis is the embarrassment and NOT my Lord Jesus, or any of His apostles...

It must be embarrassing to Lewis because he expects that the future is all settled in advance, set in stone, exhaustively foreknown, etc. For God, there is no embarrassment in failed prophecy or in delayed fulfillment because whatever new plan He adopts is the wisest based on new circumstances.

There are no "NEW" circumstances for God. And because there are no new circumstances, new plans based on those alleged new circumstances don't even exist. You inadvertently are attacking His omniscience.

Preterism also allows that there is no embarrassment in those passages by saying they were figurative and thus fulfilled. But it does not seems necessary to conclude all is figurative in order to avoid a supposed "embarrassment".

[/quote]

There you go again with that large brush stroke...ALL is NOT figurative! Please state a specific example from Scripture and let's deal with it. I believe the Bible interprets itself. Do you?

[benstenson]

I think you misunderstand what was meant by "the time had been fulfilled." I will assume that when you said "does not mean that everything was fulfilled" you applied it to ALL prophecy being fulfilled. And I quite agree. It certainly wasn't in reference to all prophecy, just the prophecy which had brought Jesus Christ to the fore. All (or most) of the prophets had predicted this time. The time had come for the fulfillment of those PARTICULAR prophecies. This next point needs empahsis. IF THE TIME HAD BEEN FULFILLED, IT COULD NEVER BE FULFILLED AGAIN. Do you understand the power of that statement? It means that there could be no delay. If there was a delay (and there wasn't), the prophets would have had to be wrong and the time would have to be fulfilled again. I can't agree that the prophets (the true prophets) could have erred...and I don't think you can either.

I thought I already shared my thoughts about this in earlier posts? Prophecy can be conditional without an explicit statement of conditionality (Jer 18). I'm not saying nothing was fulfilled. But it seems possible that some things were not fulfilled, even though the prophesied time had arrived.

But we don't make EVERYTHING figurative. Can you give me an example of what you believe is not figurative when we say it is figurative? A broad-sweeping generalization is not good enough. Please state the verse as well. Some things are figurative because the Scriptures say thay are figurative.

I don't know. I think you are probably way more familiar with non-preterist views than I am.

Statements like "at hand," "near," "nigh," and "shortly must come to pass" are NOT figurative - but to futurists these are like wavering "in the wind" hazy hallucinations that could happen to any generation at any time...

haha, yeah I know. Like I said, I totally agree with you on this point (no offense futurists). BTW, would I qualify as a futurist if I believed in a future physical return of the Lord, future resurrection of all the dead, and a future judgment of the world?

There are no "NEW" circumstances for God. And because there are no new circumstances, new plans based on those alleged new circumstances don't even exist.

Omniscience is self-evidently mistaken, being contrary to God's free-will.

There you go again with that large brush stroke...ALL is NOT figurative!

Sorry about that. I didn't intend to misrepresent your view. I'm not even sure exactly what you believe yet.

I believe the Bible interprets itself. Do you?

I don't really know what you mean.

[Mellontes]

I think you misunderstand what was meant by "the time had been fulfilled." I will assume that when you said "does not mean that everything was fulfilled" you applied it to ALL prophecy being fulfilled. And I quite agree. It certainly wasn't in reference to all prophecy, just the prophecy which had brought Jesus Christ to the fore. All (or most) of the prophets had predicted this time. The time had come for the fulfillment of those PARTICULAR prophecies. This next point needs empahsis. IF THE TIME HAD BEEN FULFILLED, IT COULD NEVER BE FULFILLED AGAIN. Do you understand the power of that statement? It means that there could be no delay. If there was a delay (and there wasn't), the prophets would have had to be wrong and the time would have to be fulfilled again. I can't agree that the prophets (the true prophets) could have erred...and I don't think you can either.

I thought I already shared my thoughts about this in earlier posts? Prophecy can be conditional without an explicit statement of conditionality (Jer 18). I'm not saying nothing was fulfilled. But it seems possible that some things were not fulfilled, even though the prophesied time had arrived.

Of course there were some things that had not been fulfilled. But the time had been fulfilled for the kingdom to be at hand. The fourth kingdom of Daniel, for instance...

But we don't make EVERYTHING figurative. Can you give me an example of what you believe is not figurative when we say it is figurative? A broad-sweeping generalization is not good enough. Please state the verse as well. Some things are figurative because the Scriptures say thay are figurative.

I don't know. I think you are probably way more familiar with non-preterist views than I am.

Humor - but you are a non-preterist still. Isn't it you who should be more familiar...lol

Statements like "at hand," "near," "nigh," and "shortly must come to pass" are NOT figurative - but to futurists these are like wavering "in the wind" hazy hallucinations that could happen to any generation at any time...

haha, yeah I know. Like I said, I totally agree with you on this point (no offense futurists). BTW, would I qualify as a futurist if I believed in a future physical return of the Lord, future resurrection of all the dead, and a future judgment of the world?

Yes. My definition of a futurist is simply one who believes in a future Parousia.

There are no "NEW" circumstances for God. And because there are no new circumstances, new plans based on those alleged new circumstances don't even exist.

Omniscience is self-evidently mistaken, being contrary to God's free-will.

Not sure if I got what you meant here...

There you go again with that large brush stroke...ALL is NOT figurative!

Sorry about that. I didn't intend to misrepresent your view. I'm not even sure exactly what you believe yet.

I believe the Bible interprets itself. Do you?

I don't really know what you mean.

I mean letting Scripture interpret Scripture, comparing Bible verses with other Bible verses...

[benstenson]

But the time had been fulfilled for the kingdom to be at hand. The fourth kingdom of Daniel, for instance...

Is there a reason you bring that up?

Isn't it you who should be more familiar...lol

I was leaning toward partial preterism until recently. I get the impression that the omniscience/foreknowledge idea could be causing a lot of confusion regarding prophecy.

My definition of a futurist is simply one who believes in a future Parousia.

Weren't the disciples told that Jesus would return in the same way He ascended?

There are no "NEW" circumstances for God. And because there are no new circumstances, new plans based on those alleged new circumstances don't even exist.

Omniscience is self-evidently mistaken, being contrary to God's free-will.

Not sure if I got what you meant here...

If God could not make new plans then He would not have free-will.

comparing Bible verses with other Bible verses...

In my experience everyone does. But we need to do it logically and not in a way that contradicts natural revelation.