Our Rule and Reign

[Othniel]

Those of us who are pre-millenialists have no difficulty in believing that the overcomers will reign with Christ right here on earth.

Indeed, but just because many don't have a problem with it, doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

As I understand it, premillennials believe in a two-stage second coming. They believe that after the "great tribulation" Jesus will come to reign on earth with the glorified Christians, non-glorified Israel, and non-believers. Then once a mass falling away happens Jesus will come again and destroy Satan and Death and will create a New Heaven and New Earth. Isn't this correct?

The problem is, the Bible doesn't make such distinctions.

John 5:28-29 speak of a grand resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous where "all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Acts 24:15 tells us "that there will be a resurrection of [the] dead, [fn] both of [the] just and [the] unjust."

Matthew 25:31-46 describe this separation of the just and the unjust, the righteous and the unrighteous, the sheep and the goats as happening at the time when the "Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him."

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 tell us that, not only will we remain until the resurrection (v.15), but also that it will happen at the Parousia, where "the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

1 Corinthians 15:52 tells us that the resurrection will happen "at the last trumpet... and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 tells us that the time when "the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels" will be the time when Jesus will come "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Revelation 20:11-15 describe the same judgment of the saved and unsaved, as well as Satan.

The Bible makes it unequivocally clear that This resurrection will happen on the last day of the earth.

John 6:39 - "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

John 6:40 - "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:54 - "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 12:48 - "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day."

So to be clear, the parousia (Time when Jesus returns in Glory with His angels), the trumpet, the judgment, the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous, and the casting away of Death and Hades, will all be happening on the same day, the LAST day.

Therefore, by it's very definition, there cannot be any more days after the last day, and so there can't be a 1,000 year period of glorified Christians and sinners living on the earth after this last day.

I think the premillennial view is riddled with difficulty indeed.

[Paidion]

I think you are evading the problem, by telling me to talk to God if I have a problem. The fact is that you are not ruling anybody on this earth. Neither is God in the sense that He is controlling evil people. He has given man free will like Himself, and He respects that and usually does nothing to prevent atrocities from occurring.

It may be true that there are certain boundaries outside of which God will not permit man to move. For example, maybe God will take action to prevent man from annihilating himself with nuclear weapons. I'm not sure whether or not these boundaries exist. What I am sure of, is that God does not control people as a person might control a puppet.

In former days when a king ruled a country, he controlled the people through force. They had to obey or die. I see no evidence that you or God is controlling the people of the world in this way. I do not see any evidence that you or God in any way "zap" prison guards to prevent them from torturing Christians, or sends fire upon murderous sex offenders who torture, rape, and kill women and/or children.

[Othniel]

I think you are evading the problem, by telling me to talk to God if I have a problem. The fact is that you are not ruling anybody on this earth. Neither is God in the sense that He is controlling evil people. He has given man free will like Himself, and He respects that and usually does nothing to prevent atrocities from occurring.

It may be true that there are certain boundaries outside of which God will not permit man to move. For example, maybe God will take action to prevent man from annihilating himself with nuclear weapons. I'm not sure whether or not these boundaries exist. What I am sure of, is that God does not control people as a person might control a puppet.

In former days when a king ruled a country, he controlled the people through force. They had to obey or die. I see no evidence that you or God is controlling the people of the world in this way. I do not see any evidence that you or God in any way "zap" prison guards to prevent them from torturing Christians, or sends fire upon murderous sex offenders who torture, rape, and kill women and/or children.

Remember, if God were to judge the wicked of the earth and do away with Evil, He would have to do away with (and "zap") us. He is simply biding His time until the final judgment day.

I'm not saying "just talk to God about it," I'm saying that He's the one in charge and He's the one you are having problems with if you think He is not ruling correctly. I am simply saying that, if we use your logic in saying we can't be ruling right now because things are bad, we would be forced to also say that God can't be ruling right now because things are bad. This is a position I don't think is biblical.

Remember Job? Satan had to ask God's permission before he could do anything to Job. Even in the New Testament, Demons submitted to the will of Jesus (Mat 8:31-32). I agree with you that God's will is for us to have free will.

I think the problem comes down to your assumptions of what reigning should look like. It's the same problem the pharisees made. They thought Jesus was going to come and establish a political Kingdom, but He didn't. He came to die on the cross and His Kingdom was "not of this world." He came to establish a spiritual Kingdom of people who would follow Him, not a physical one that would overthrow the Roman empire.

Jesus is ruling, He is in charge (even over the bad things), and He will control the people with force in the last day when He separates the sheep from the goats and casts the wicked into the lake of fire. Jesus does indeed say "Obey or die."

John 3:36 reads: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

The world is living under God's grace, but it will not be so forever. If commandments are any sign of Ruling, Jesus is definitely ruling.

[Paidion]

I think the problem comes down to your assumptions of what reigning should look like. It's the same problem the pharisees made. They thought Jesus was going to come and establish a political Kingdom, but He didn't. He came to die on the cross and His Kingdom was "not of this world." He came to establish a spiritual Kingdom of people who would follow Him, not a physical one that would overthrow the Roman empire.

Jesus is ruling, He is in charge (even over the bad things), and He will control the people with force in the last day when He separates the sheep from the goats and casts the wicked into the lake of fire. Jesus does indeed say "Obey or die."

Again I ask the question how would events in this world be any different if He were not reigning? If WE were not reigning? Or both?

However "reigning should look", it involves using some sort of force or influence on others. Otherwise, there would be no difference whether someone was "reigning" or not.

[Paidion]

As I understand it, premillennials believe in a two-stage second coming.

No. The "premillenialist" position is simply that Christ will come prior to the millenium. But their are several "flavours".

Historic premillenialism was the usual position taken by the Christians of the second century. It is also my own position. — Just one stage to His coming. After His coming, He will rule and reign with His saints here on earth for 1000 years.

Those who believe in a "two-stage second coming" (actually a second and a third coming) are known as "pre-tribulation rapturists", the idea that Christ will secretly snatch up His saints into heaven prior to a 7y tribulation period, and then come in judgment at the end of the tribulation period and prior to the millenium. It is believed that this view was unknown in the church prior to 1830.

[Othniel]

Again I ask the question how would events in this world be any different if He were not reigning? If WE were not reigning? Or both?

However "reigning should look", it involves using some sort of force or influence on others. Otherwise, there would be no difference whether someone was "reigning" or not.

If God weren't reigning, I don't think existence would be possible anymore. God is sovereign. He is the ultimate authority and the ultimate rule. To imagine a world where this is not so makes no sense.

According to dictionary.com, the term "reign" when used as a verb means:
"[1] To possess or exercise soveregin power or authority.
[2] to hold the position and name of sovereign without exercising the ruling power.
[3] to have control, rule, or influence of any kind."

I don't see any reason why God would be forced to control anyone, He just has to be in charge, which He is. A King has the right to control his subjects, but he can certainly allow them to do as they please.

And as I said, I believe that one day God will exert His Will on the world. One day He will make every knee bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord, whether they want to or not. So don't make the mistake of thinking that God isn't reigning because He isn't currently enforcing His laws unto death. It's a period of Grace.

"Therefore God has [past tense] highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:9-11)

We do reign with Christ presently. Paul himself declares this to us:
"I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers... that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated [past tense] him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all" (Eph 1:16, 18-23).

Why ask hypothetical questions regarding what life would be like if God and the church weren't reigning? There is no need to imagine such absurdities when scripture is so clear that God and Christ, and those in Christ, are in charge. God's Kingdom has come! That's why Jesus and the church have authority over demons, because we do indeed have authority in Christ.

[Paidion]

If God weren't reigning, I don't think existence would be possible anymore. God is sovereign. He is the ultimate authority and the ultimate rule. To imagine a world where this is not so makes no sense.

One could use the same argument to support the idea that Zeus is reigning.

Why ask hypothetical questions regarding what life would be like if God and the church weren't reigning?

It's an attempt to get you to think outside the box.

[Othniel]

One could use the same argument to support the idea that Zeus is reigning.

I figured it was safe to assume the God of the Bible exists. Perhaps I will avoid such assumptions when discussing things with you in the future. Silly statements like this don't add to your historical premillennial arguments my friend

It's an attempt to get you to think outside the box.

Heh, while I appreciate the attempt, I prefer to remain in the box if it means dealing with facts before fantasy. And though I do enjoy thought provoking questions, I don't think the question you proposed accomplished the desired affect, nor did your humorous comment about Zeus lol.

That being said, I'm always open for any thoughts you or anyone else may feel is beneficial.

[Paidion]

Again I ask the question how would events in this world be any different if He were not reigning? If WE were not reigning? Or both?

Why ask hypothetical questions regarding what life would be like if God and the church weren't reigning? There is no need to imagine such absurdities when scripture is so clear that God and Christ, and those in Christ, are in charge.

Okay, it was my hope that you might think a little deeper as to why I asked this "hypothetical question." Apparently you haven't. So I will now give a more meaningful answer than my previous "It's an attempt to get you to think outside the box."

Statements are meaningful only if they are falsifiable. For example, if I affirm that it's cold outside today, this statement is meaningful only it could be shown that conditions would be different if it were NOT cold outside today. And that would be easy to do. For example, I would feel more comfortable when I go outside. My thermometer would record a different temperature, etc. Thus I have uttered a meaningful statement. Whether the statement is true or not is a separate question.

However, suppose I should claim that last night everything in the universe doubled in size. Would it not be appropriate for you to ask, "How do you know? How would things be any different if the universe had NOT doubled in size?" If my answer were, "Well, I guess things would be no different," then my statement that everything in the universe had doubled was meaningless. Not true. Not false. But meaningless. Such a statement is not falsifiable.

So my question as to how the world would be any different if God and the church were NOT reigning is not just "absurd imagination". If conditions on earth were exactly the same if they were not reigning, then the statement that they are reigning is not falsifiable, and therefore meaningless. Not true. Not false. But meaningless.

[jeremiah]

paidion,

whatever the final fulfillment may be, i think the rule we currently share in is over our sin. and that is first and foremost only a consequence of being in Christ. just as breath sustains our life, so too without Christ in us we have no power of ourselves to sustain real righteousness. but as his disciples, i think we can "cease to do evil, and learn to do good."

consider what God said to cain in Genesis 4:7:

If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it. nkjv
If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it. nasb

paul told us to not let sin reign in our mortal body. i think as Christ reigns over me i get to share in that reign, learning by him to master the sin that i could have just as easily chosen to be owned by.

i don't for a second consider this summary to be some kind of trump card to either the premillennial ideas of what the rule and reign is, or the more conventional amillennial view of it. this is just what i think i'm starting to understand about how exactly we are currently a "royal priesthood". as i don't at all agree with the idea that this current reign has anything to do with the saints who have died and are thought to be in heaven. i have to get to work, but look forward to any further discussion.

grace and peace.