those who bless Israel are blessed....

[Guest]

We all have read that passage but here is my question. Is it possible that the social ills, economic ills and foreign affair problems for the US are a direct result of Gods judgment (curse) on the US for supporting anti-christ israel over the true Israel the Chruch?

Jim

Could it be possible that many Christians who see Israel as God's chosen people today are actually watching and/or supporting the anti-Christ?

Could the false prophet(s) in revelations also be dispensationalist eschatology?

[Guest]

Under this scenerio I believe the false prophet to be Christian Zionism.

[Guest]

Since Sean's interjecting thought, the topic has become practically dead with silence. Is what he said so way out their that nobody wants to compliment it with a comment or is it thought provokong and now under research? Personally I believe this to be a very interesting possibility. I strongly believe that the endtimes prophecies are against Israel (or for Israel, depending on your view) therefore how far fetched would it be to attribute the revived nation of Israel as the beast with a healed mortal wound. I have been around Christian Zionists now for several years and I have to tell you these people worship the Israel of today. What can be more deceiving then what we see today? Probably much, but still this is very interesting to contemplate.

[Guest]

...how far fetched would it be to attribute the revived nation of Israel as the beast with a healed mortal wound.

I don't know how far fetched that would be. But I am reminded of the fact that a second-century writer (a pre-millenialist ---I think it was Irenaeus) said that Antichrist would come from the tribe of Dan. It is interesting to note that that tribe is not mentioned in Revelation where the 12 tribes are listed.

[Guest]

I don't think Revelation 13 is a prediction about modern day Israel (at all, as I'm amillennial and partial-preterist).

This is a very good article, imo, from the Worldwide Church of God:

The "Beasts" of Revelation 13

excerpted

In identifying Nero as the background of the wounded "head," we should be cautious in how we understand it. Remember that it is the beast itself who is said to receive the fatal wound, even though only one of its heads receives the mortal blow (verses 12, 14). The point is, we should be looking for the revival of the beast as a whole in John’s time, not in an individual ruler.

Interestingly enough, the empire did go through what appeared to be a "mortal wounding" after the death of Nero. In one year, three emperors assumed the throne and were deposed. Civil war was rampant. It appeared as though the Roman Empire was about to disintegrate. But the succeeding emperors, Vespasian (AD 69-79), and his son, Titus (79-81), brought stability. Rather than disintegrating, the empire went on to unprecedented heights of power that shocked the various kingdoms and nations that fell under its military, political and economic sway.

It is against this backdrop that Revelation 13 made its point to the Christians in Asia: Yes, a "Nero" certainly has appeared to return from the dead in a reborn Roman Empire. Yes, the world is enamored with the empire being "resurrected" to a now greater, world-ruling power. Yes, this restored beast inspires awe in the citizens of Asia, and of the world. (How they worship the empire in Asia!) Well, don’t be fooled into worshipping the beast along with the people of the world; worship God.

Is there an eschatological or end-time fulfillment to Revelation 13 as well? It’s clear that Revelation as a whole does have in view such a time when "the kingdom of the world" will "become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ" (11:15). Chapters 19 and 20, for example, point to a time when the Lamb will return as a victorious king and the people of God will be given their reward.

It’s possible that Revelation 13 could speak to an end-time activity of evil world power. In the words of George Ladd: "The symbolism of emperor worship in Asia Minor forms only the background for the vision of the second beast, whose power and influence will go far beyond anything known in the ancient world. The experience of emperor worship provided only echoes of the terrible reality which will be fulfilled in the last days" (A Commentary on the Revelation of John, p.183).

As long as we do not go beyond a general assertion of the following New Testament truths, we are on safe ground: Jesus will return again, the dead in Christ will rise, God will judge the world, his kingdom will fill the earth in all its fullness. But to claim that a specific time in history is the eschatological fulfillment of Revelation 13 is to go beyond John’s interest. To say that the 13th chapter gives us a blueprint for how "end-time" events will work out is to bring ideas into the text that the book doesn’t contain. In short, we have no way of knowing what the specific political, religious or economic outlines of the "end-time" will be like. Nor do we know when such events may occur (Mathew 24:36; Acts 1:6-7).

Of course, we can certainly see the principle of Revelation 13 at work throughout history—before and after John’s time. In fact, the Roman Empire of John’s day is itself called "Babylon the Great" (18:2) after another power that dominated a good part of the world in its time. Symbolically, Revelation can also be interpreted as making a point about any evil and oppressive government that seeks to usurp the lordship of God and parody his holiness.

....In summary, then, the original purpose of Revelation 13 was to show the Christians of Asia that the Roman Empire and the worship of the emperor and local deities was not of God. There was no point of compromise between this Babylon the Great and the people of God. The churches were warned that a time of persecution over these issues would befall them. The members were to stand fast in the faith of Christ, their slain Lamb, even if it led them to their death. In death or martyrdom they would witness to the fact that a greater than Caesar was alive, Jesus the Alpha and Omega. In the end, the church would win and the martyrs would reign with Christ as priests and kings.

What this article says, I agree with (with a possible exception on the dating of Revelation (when written)...which I see as very likely "early").

I tried listen to listen to Steve's lecture on Rev 13...but kept falling asleep during chapter 12, lol. I think some of what Steve says is basically the same as in this article (has more quotes from G.E. Ladd, the late great theologian)...check it out. Ladd's commentary on Revelation is excellent, though he was a premillennialist.
Rick

[Guest]

I have been around Christian Zionists now for several years and I have to tell you these people worship the Israel of today. What can be more deceiving then what we see today? Probably much, but still this is very interesting to contemplate.

I agree that many Christians seem to worship Israel of today in my opinion a very distructive way. It is why I am asking these questions but I find that if you are against Israel in anyway suddenly your anti-semetic.

[Guest]

Greetings,

I have been around Christian Zionists now for several years and I have to tell you these people worship the Israel of today. What can be more deceiving then what we see today? Probably much, but still this is very interesting to contemplate.

You probably already know that the word "worship" comes from an older English word-root that meant: "to ascribe worth (usually to a deity): "worth-ship."

In a certain sense of meaning, we could probably say some Christians sort of "worship" Jews and/or the nation of Israel (in that they ascribe a special sense of "worth" to them). But I don't know of any Christian who worships them like they worship God. If they did that, they would no longer be Christians.

1. I agree that many Christians seem to worship Israel of today in my opinion a very distructive way.

2. It is why I am asking these questions but I find that if you are against Israel in anyway suddenly your anti-semetic.

Jim, please consider the following:

1. I agree that they kind of seem to "worship" Israel and/or the Jewish people. I see Jews (whether they believe in Christ or not) as a "beloved" people because of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament, see Romans 12:28b. I've talked with Jews about the Bible...and Christ...beginning with those things we have in common (the Tanakh (Jewish Bible), (our) Old Testament).

2. I want to be clear that:

A. I can't approve of any nation if, and when, they do wrong (including my own).
B. The phrase "anti-christ Israel" is not found in the Bible and conveys the message that the entire nation is of the devil: The Bible does not teach this.
C. There is no "anti-christ" in Israel (or anywhere else today) who has set himself up as being God-Himself, demanding the kind of (universal) worship God alone deserves.
D. To avoid sounding anti-Semitic, it is best to choose wording that couldn't be mistaken for it.
E. It is quite likely that at least a few non-believing Jews have read this thread.
F. "Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved" (Ro 10:1, NIV)
What-Paul-said.

This is all I have to say on this aspect of the discussion....
Thanks for reading,
Rick

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

One of the big problems I have with Zionism is that the Jews of today are in large part no more blood related to Abraham than you or I might be, but yet because they are called Jews or they thmeselves have a mother of Jewish descent (who may have only come from a family of converted Jews) then they are given the name Israel and thus favored highly by God. This is not only a false placement of descent but goes against Scripture.

Steves audio lecture on "What shall We Make of Israel" is an excellent study on this subject.

[Guest]

I find that if you are against Israel in anyway suddenly your anti-semetic.

Yeah, in my experience you don't have to even be 'against' Israel in any way to be called anti-semitic, you just have to not be completely FOR them. Dispensationalists and/or Christian-Zionists sometimes get angry if you even mention that Israel is currently ignoring the UN Resolution. And though some dispy's are surprised and interested in the fact that there are Palestinian Christians, others think bringing them up will just cloud our necessary support for political Israel.

The other day I went through a box of books that somebody left at our church. Inside was John Hagee's "Jerusalem Countdown," Which I started skimming through but ended up reading almost completely in just a couple of hours (must have large print or something). Anyways, in a book about the crisis of modern day Jerusalem there was not 1 mention, that I remember, of an injustice committed by the Israeli side. There was not 1 mention, that I remember, of the fact that there are Palestinian Christians. And failure to support political Israel was referred to as anti-semitic and perhaps satanic.

[Guest]

...in my experience you don't have to even be 'against' Israel in any way to be called anti-semitic, you just have to not be completely FOR them. Dispensationalists and/or Christian-Zionists sometimes get angry if you even mention that Israel is currently ignoring the UN Resolution...

That is also my experience. Playing the "replacement theology is heresy card" is also common. It is thought to trump and override every Scripture passage and logical conclusion that can be drawn from the Scriptures.

One example from a post made by "Sword of Geddon" on another board in a topic I got involved with there.

Israel is not believers. Israel is the nation given unto the Jews. YOU ARE PROMOTING REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. That makes you a heretic. I rebuke you in Jesus name!

*Mods, please feel free to delete this post if it is improper to post a quote from another board.

Blessings,
Lazarus43