The Length of the Amillennial Reign

[dwilkins]

I haven't studied Hebrew, but I understand the Hebrew words also have a similar meaning and not "forever and ever."

I'm certainly no Hebrew expert. But the term in question is defined below by Strongs and is only seen in the verse list below.

H5957 `alam aw-lam'

(Aramaic) corresponding to H5769;

remote time, i.e. the future or past indefinitely; often adverb, forever.

KJV: for ((n-))ever (lasting), old.

Having thrown out some wildcards (such as when in Ezra 4:9 the root word for forever shows up as an element of "Elamites") and some repetition, the following are the uses of the Hebrew root that becomes forever in a number of passages including Daniel 7:18. The root is seen in "forever", "everlasting", and "old time":

AV Dn 2:4 Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation.

AV Dn 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

AV Dn 3:9 They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever.

AV Dn 5:10 . [Now] the queen, by reason of the words of the king and his lords, came into the banquet house: [and] the queen spake and said, O king, live for ever: let not thy thoughts trouble thee, nor let thy countenance be changed:

AV Dn 6:6 . Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever.

AV Dn 6:21 Then said Daniel unto the king, O king, live for ever.

AV Dn 6:26 I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he [is] the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion [shall be even] unto the end.

AV Ezr 4:15 That search may be made in the book of the records of thy fathers: so shalt thou find in the book of the records, and know that this city [is] a rebellious city, and hurtful unto kings and provinces, and that they have moved sedition within the same of old time: for which cause was this city destroyed.

AV Dn 2:20 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:

AV Dn 4:34 . And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation:

AV Dn 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

AV Dn 4:3 How great [are] his signs! and how mighty [are] his wonders! his kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion [is] from generation to generation.

AV Dn 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

AV Dn 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

AV Dn 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

AV Dn 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

[Paidion]

According to the Online Bible lexicon, the Aramaic word "alam" that you mentioned (Strongs 05957) corresponds to the Hebrew word "owlan" (Strongs 05769), which means, according to the same lexicon, not only "forever" but also "long duration". Here are some places in which the latter word is used:


If a Hebrew slave doesn't want to leave you, his master:

De 15:17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever.

Shall this person be his master's slave throughout eternity?

De 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever.

Why specify the tenth generation if it was to appy for ever?
De 23:6 Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever.

So which is it? Don't seek their peace nor their prosperity all your days? Or for ever? Was he to continue this throughout eternity?

2 Chron 6:1,2 Then said Solomon, The LORD hath said that he would dwell in the thick darkness. But I have built an house of habitation for thee, and a place for thy dwelling for ever.

Will the LORD dwell in Solomon's temple throughout eternity?

So I don't see how your long list of "for ever" verses from the King James where the Aramaic "alam" is used, proves that "alam" means "forever".

[dwilkins]

None of these terms always means exactly the same thing. My point of the list of verses is to compare how it is used in similar contexts. It seems obvious to me that compared to similar contexts forever is a good way to translate it in Daniel 7:18. How long a slave wants to be with his owner is not a similar context, so I don't see how that example does anything to make your point.

Doug

[Homer]

Doug wrote:

None of these terms always means exactly the same thing. My point of the list of verses is to compare how it is used in similar contexts.

Doug is correct. The meaning is determined by what the person meant to say in the context, which ought to be a no-brainer. What does "eternal" and "forever" mean when used of God? And what does it mean if I say "Joe is forever making mistakes"?

I pointed out long ago that the land-owner behind us has a easement across the edge of our property for a lane to their property. The legal document clearly states that the easement is "forever". But in this case forever can be terminated for various reasons. For example, a public authority can exercise eminent domain and terminate the "forever" easement.

President Kennedy's grave has an "eternal flame". But it is equipped with a continuous electrical spark to relight it when it goes out. Not exactly eternal. And who believes it will be burning a thousand years from now?

The argument that owlam/aionios never means "eternal" is fallacy.

[Paidion]

The meaning is determined by what the person meant to say in the context, which ought to be a no-brainer.

And so it is you who decides what the context means? Do you do that with all the other words in the Bible? No wonder there are so many far-out interpretations of scripture. All you have to do is interpret the context, and then assign a "meaning" to the words used in that context which fit your interpretation.

[Homer]

The meaning is determined by what the person meant to say in the context, which ought to be a no-brainer.

And so it is you who decides what the context means?

That's not it. What I mean is that the person meant to convey an idea when the word was used. It does not matter what the root word meaning is or what someone meant by the word 300 years previous. The context can be literal or figurative, or poetry. We need to determine what the author meant, that's the no-brainer.

Seems obvious that owlam did not mean the exact same thing in all cases of its use, as Doug pointed out, just as I showed "forever" and "eternal" do not mean the same thing each time they are used today.

[dwilkins]

Getting back to the point of the topic, reading Hoekema, Riddlebarger, Grenz, and Strimple they lean towards the beginning of the thousand year detention of the saints as that point in Luke where Christ sees Satan falling from heaven. I'll estimate that at 28AD (might be 29). I have two primary problems with this. First, Revelation 12 seems to indicate that the ascension marked a dramatic curtailing of Satan's influence. I don't see Amillennialists engage this passage much, so I think they are missing something here. Second, in the traditional Amillennial paradigm the thousand year reign of the saints is the opposite side of the coin from the thousand year detention of Satan. They begin and end at the same time. This would mean that, if the 28AD date is correct, the saints were resurrected before Christ was. The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is the only resurrection described in detail in that chapter. The "second resurrection" is a term not used in scripture, and is either only implied or not in the text at all depending on your position on the textual variant in 20:5a. So, I think it is odd that the First Fruits resurrection of Christ comes after the first resurrection of the saints. It should be the other way around.

Looking back on it I should have labeled the threat "Precise Starting Points for the Beginning and End of the Amillennial View", because that's what I'm really trying to get at. Any input from Amillennialists would be appreciated.

Doug

[Paidion]

And so it is you who decides what the context means?

That's not it

I think that's exactly it. For example, consider this passage from Phillipians 2:5-11 (NASB):

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The most straight-forward reading of the passage would indicate that all people will submit to Christ and be reconciled to God. To confess Jesus as Lord is the very entrance into salvation. But if one already believes that NOT all will be reconciled to God or that death is the cut-off point, one changes the meanings of words so as to force the whole passage not to teach universal reconciliation. Some say that in the clause "Every knee shall bow", "every' does not mean "every" but means "many" or else it means "every regenerated knee".

Others say, "Yes, every knee will bow all right, when they've been hit behind by a two-by-four!" That is, there will be forced submission (even though God has never forced submission in all of history).

However, surely "Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord" cannot be forced. This must come from the heart. Again to get around this, people have to claim that "every knee" doesn't mean "every knee" but just "some knees", or else "every Christian knee."

[Homer]

However, surely "Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord" cannot be forced. This must come from the heart.

It must come from the heart now because it is by faith. We are saved by faith. But then they will have apodictic knowledge; faith will play no role in the confession when confronted by the risen Lord.

[dwilkins]

The expectation that every tongue above, on, and below the earth will confess that Jesus is Lord is a parallel concept to the idea of Jesus placing all of his enemies under his footstool. Since the footstool imagery has to do with violent subjugation (with a rod of iron shattering pots, no less), I think that your assertion that Jesus never forces anyone to submit to him is off base. In order to make the whole line of thought relevant to a discussion of the timing of the initiation or end of the millennium, I'll point to Revelation 4-5 where we see this played out. This is a seen of the ascension and session of Christ onto the throne. At the time of Jesus' seating on the throne we find the following:

Revelation 5:12-14 (ESV)
12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"
13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.

So, immediately after Jesus is seated on his throne, before the first seal is broken, we see these terms fulfilled. That would mean that according to the traditional Amillennial scheme it was fulfilled at nearly the beginning of the millennium in ~30AD(assuming they are right, of course).

Doug