The Book of Matthew

[Paidion]

Here is a clear reference to the second coming of Christ:

And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. Heb 9:27,28

What were those who were "eagerly waiting for him" expecting? Were they eagerly waiting for Him to come and destroy Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? I don't think so.

The text implies that they, having had their sin dealt with through his sacrifice when He came the first time , were eagerly waiting for Him to come a second time and save them.

[Allyn]

Here is a clear reference to the second coming of Christ:

And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. Heb 9:27,28

What were those who were "eagerly waiting for him" expecting? Were they eagerly waiting for Him to come and destroy Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? I don't think so.

The text implies that they, having had their sin dealt with through his sacrifice when He came the first time , were eagerly waiting for Him to come a second time and save them.

Save then from what? What does my Epistles thread tell you about what they were waiting for?

[Mellontes]

Here is a clear reference to the second coming of Christ:

And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. Heb 9:27,28

What were those who were "eagerly waiting for him" expecting? Were they eagerly waiting for Him to come and destroy Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? I don't think so.

The text implies that they, having had their sin dealt with through his sacrifice when He came the first time , were eagerly waiting for Him to come a second time and save them.

Hi "Little Child" (it seems that Greek nicks are commonplace here. That can't be the same as beat-nicks, can it?)

Two questions if you will permit...

Would you agree that Hebrews 9:27-28 was "the day approaching" in Hebrews 10:25 just 25 verses later? And if not, what was "the day approaching" referring to?

As for your question regarding the destruction of Jerusalem (and the old covenant temple system) is it not answered by Hebrews 8:13 and Hebrews 10:9? Christ's coming was more than just coming in judgment upon the old covenant system in 70 AD; it was also to inaugerate or manifest the age of the new covenant in completeness. The destruction vindicated the believers of the new covenant. It also stopped the Jewish persecution. They would no longer be considered just some "sect" of the old Jewish religion. Biblical Judaism was wiped out and obliterated. These were the days of vengeance foretold by Christ in Luke 21:22 and Isaiah 61:2.

I would like to add also that Paul spoke to the first century Thessalonians in the same regard. These Thessalonians had been under Jewish persecution for some time (1 Thess 2:14). In his second epistle and under inspiration, Paul promises these Christians from Thessalonica rest from their persecutions (2 Thess 1:6-7)

2 Thess 1:6-7 - Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

It is impossible to make this rest from their present persecutions 2,000 years removed from the context, although some paradigms demand just that. Now either Paul lied about his promise to these 1st century Thessalonians (making inspiration and authority of Scripture an absolute farce) or what he said came to pass to the individuals he wrote to and in the time frame expressed. This matches perfectly and is in harmony with their generation - the one Christ Himself said in Matthew 24:34 (unless, of course, Jesus was mistaken here too).

Paidion, I honestly ask you to lay down your theological paradigm so that you can "see" these things from God's perspective. It isn't an easy thing to do but it has to be done if you are going to defend and uphold the authority and inspiration of Scripture regarding these end time events...

May I also refer you to the studies of each epistle by "Allyn" in the section "Epistles" under the main heading of "Eschatology"?

We are trying to answer your questions. Will you be willing to answer ours as well?

Most humble blessings, Mellontes

[TK]

From Matthew Henry's commentary:

Having mentioned their persecutions and tribulations, which they endured principally for the cause of Christ, the apostle proceeds to offer several things for their comfort under them; as, I. He tells them of the present happiness and advantage of their sufferings, v. 5. Their faith being thus tried, and patience exercised, they were improved by their sufferings, insomuch that they were counted worthy of the kingdom of God. Their sufferings were a manifest token of this, that they were worthy or meet to be accounted Christians indeed, seeing they could suffer for Christianity. And the truth is, Religion, if it is worth any thing, is worth every thing; and those either have no religion at all, or none that is worth having, or know not how to value it, that cannot find in their hearts to suffer for it. Besides, from their patient suffering, it appeared that, according to the righteous judgment of God, they should be counted worthy of the heavenly glory: not by worthiness of condignity, but of congruity only; not that they could merit heaven, but they were made meet for heaven. We cannot by all our sufferings, any more than by our services, merit heaven as a debt; but by our patience under our sufferings we are qualified for the joy that is promised to patient sufferers in the cause of God. II. He tells them next of the future recompence that shall be given to persecutor and persecuted. 1. In this future recompence there will be, (1.) A punishment inflicted on persecutors: God will recompense tribulation to those that trouble you, v. 6. And there is nothing that more infallibly marks a man for eternal ruin than a spirit of persecution, and enmity to the name and people of God: as the faith, patience, and constancy of the saints are to them an earnest of everlasting rest and joy, so the pride, malice, and wickedness of their persecutors are to them an earnest of everlasting misery; for every man carries about with him, and carries out of the world with him, either his heaven or his hell. God will render a recompence, and will trouble those that trouble his people. This he has done sometimes in this world, witness the dreadful end of many persecutors; but especially this he will do in the other world, where the portion of the wicked must be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth. (2.) A reward for those that are persecuted: God will recompense their trouble with rest, v. 7. There is a rest that remains for the people of God, a rest from sin and sorrow. Though many may be the troubles of the righteous now, yet God will deliver them out of them all. The future rest will abundantly recompense all their present troubles. The sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed. There is enough in heaven to countervail all that we may lose or suffer for the name of Christ in this world. The apostle says, To you who are troubled rest with us. In heaven, ministers and people shall rest together, and rejoice together, who suffer together here; and the meanest Christian shall rest with the greatest apostle: nay, what is far more, if we suffer for Christ, we shall also reign with him, 2 Tim. 2:12. 2. Concerning this future recompence we are further to observe, (1.) The certainty of it, proved by the righteousness and justice of God: It is a righteous thing with God (v. 6) to render to every man according to his works. The thoughts of this should be terrible to wicked men and persecutors, and the great support of the righteous and such as are persecuted; for, seeing there is a righteous God, there will be a righteous recompence. God’s suffering people will lose nothing by their sufferings, and their enemies will gain nothing by their advantages against them. (2.) The time when this righteous recompence shall be made: When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, v. 7. That will be the day of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God; for then will God judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath appointed, even Jesus Christ the righteous Judge. The righteousness of God does not so visibly appear to all men in the procedure of his providence as it will in the process of the great judgment-day. The scripture has made known to us the judgment to come, and we are bound to receive the revelation here given concerning Christ. As, [1.] That the Lord Jesus will in that day appear from heaven. Now the heavens retain him, they conceal him; but then he will be revealed and made manifest. He will come in all the pomp and power of the upper world, whence we look for the Saviour. [2.] He will be revealed with his mighty angels (v. 7), or the angels of his power: these will attend upon him, to grace the solemnity of that great day of his appearance; they will be the ministers of his justice and mercy in that day; they will summon the criminals to his tribunal, and gather in the elect, and be employed in executing his sentence. [3.] He will come in flaming fire, v. 8. A fire goeth before him, which shall consume his enemies. The earth, and all the works that are therein, shall be burnt up, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. This will be a trying fire, to try every man’s work,—a refining fire, to purify the saints, who shall share in the purity, and partake of the felicity, of the new heaven and the new earth,—a consuming fire to the wicked. His light will be piercing, and his power consuming, to all those who in that day shall be found as chaff. [4.] The effects of this appearance will be terrible to some and joyful to others. First, They will be terrible to some; for he will then take vengeance on the wicked. 1. On those that sinned against the principles of natural religion, and rebelled against the light of nature, that knew not God (v. 8

TK

[TK]

1 Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.

Ps. 37:1-2.


I do not read Paul's word (or David's, above) to require that those being persecuted should expect revenge, soon, or even in their lifetime. he was saying that sooner or later, the baddies will get theirs, and its up to God.

TK

[Mellontes]

1 Do not fret because of evildoers,
Nor be envious of the workers of iniquity.
2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass,
And wither as the green herb.

Ps. 37:1-2.


I do not read Paul's word (or David's, above) to require that those being persecuted should expect revenge, soon, or even in their lifetime. he was saying that sooner or later, the baddies will get theirs, and its up to God.

TK

I wonder if you put on first century sandals and robe and heard Paul's words being spoken to you if that was the sense of Paul's message. I wonder it would be possible for you to feel encouraged by something that was supposedly NOT going to happen to them. I wonder how you would explain the "rest with us" portion. The "us" refers to Paul, Timothy and Silvanus - at least if you respect the authority and inspiration of Scripture. Many have taken these similar "pronouns" and have yanked them out of the 1st century historical context (in contrast to their own hermeneutic of "grammatical-historical," and have replaced them with this 21st century generation. This was also being done in the 20th century, the 19th centtury and and so on... This is similar to what you have done. This kind of thinking makes every single epistle written to not apply to the very people it was written to. It's like Jesus telling His disciples to watch and wait for His return, but secretly inside He is thinking "Na na nah, I'm not coming for at least another 1,950 years. I just want to make you and every generation look for me because it is good practice." That is tantamount to calling Jesus a liar, or at the very, very least deceptive and subtle. Does that remind you of anything? (hint: Genesis 3:1)

Strange though, Pauls words did come true. The Jewish persecutors would judged. Millions were either killed or sold into slavery and the old covenant system abolished. The Thessalonians did receive rest. Do you know of any churches being persecuted by the Jews now? Supposedly we are living very close to the end times. No I guess you don't, must be due to the Zionist movement which basically supports the Jews in whatever they do.

Futurists (which you are part of TK) totally ignore the audience relevance of the 1st century in order to keep their own eschatological paradigm alive. It's funny though, the historical relevance is maintained as best as possible when discussing other doctrines. But you probably don't find this inconsistent at all.

Blessings, Mellontes

[TK]

mellontes wrote:

It's like Jesus telling His disciples to watch and wait for His return, but secretly inside He is thinking "Na na nah, I'm not coming for at least another 1,950 years. I just want to make you and every generation look for me because it is good practice."

not necessarily. maybe paul had a revelation that Jesus would return shortly, but perhaps God, in his mercy, decided to delay this coming.

You say "futurist" like it's a dirty word. no one has yet satisfactorily explained how the second coming of Christ and the rapture of the early church was missed by everybody else. why would not those who were the 1st Christians AFTER this supposed rapture ever say, yeah, the ratpure happened last year. it doesnt make any sense.

TK

[TK]

by the way, i am not a complete futurist. i believe much WAS fulfilled in 70 AD. but certainly not the second coming of Christ. i am afraid you are in the extreme minority on that one.

TK

[Allyn]

mellontes wrote:

It's like Jesus telling His disciples to watch and wait for His return, but secretly inside He is thinking "Na na nah, I'm not coming for at least another 1,950 years. I just want to make you and every generation look for me because it is good practice."

not necessarily. maybe paul had a revelation that Jesus would return shortly, but perhaps God, in his mercy, decided to delay this coming.

You say "futurist" like it's a dirty word. no one has yet satisfactorily explained how the second coming of Christ and the rapture of the early church was missed by everybody else. why would not those who were the 1st Christians AFTER this supposed rapture ever say, yeah, the ratpure happened last year. it doesnt make any sense.

TK

Hi TK, if the raptured happened in the 1st century, and I am certain it did, and if people did not report it for whatever reason (so much chaos and upheavel and destruction going on at the time and people literally missing left and right and no scribes around to take notes), then would that make the rapture any less true? In otherwords, wouldn't it be better to take the meaning of Scripture as our best truth? If you can truly defend your view from Scripture instead of wondering why no one wrote about the rapture after it happened, I would like to see that instead. But in Christ, you are my brother.

[Mellontes]

by the way, i am not a complete futurist. i believe much WAS fulfilled in 70 AD. but certainly not the second coming of Christ. i am afraid you are in the extreme minority on that one.

TK

Perhaps some definitions are in order - and I don't think futurist is a dirty word. But I must admit, futurists will do just about anything to the Scriptures in order to maintain their own paradigm of futurism - I have seen it on several occasions including the times when I did it. I guess the best known quote is that of C.S. Lewis, a Christian author. I will end this response with that quote if I can find it quick enough.

All theologies are futurist except for full-preterists.
All theologies are preterist in some respect.

Futurism is the simple belief that the Lord's return (second appearing) is a yet future event. This includes the eschatology of Mormons (I have a story on that), Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, Dispensationalists, Amillennialists and post millennialists.

Here is my Mormon story:

About two weeks ago I requested (online) a copy of the Book of Mormon. I
was told it necessitated a visit but I still said yes.

Well, they came today and we talked about fulfilled eschatology for
about an hour. I took them through some Greek, the usual time
statements, etc. and handed them an article on the stars that fell to
earth in Revelation. They were really excited to hear about this stuff.

Surprisingly, one of the two (there are always two) said that spiritual
death was the penalty for sin. The other one (the learner) said it was
both physical and spiritual. Neither could explain the reason for food
in Genesis 1:29 if man was created immortal.

It was fun discussing the Scriptures and my favorite software (e-Sword)
with them. I encouraged them to get back to me with any questions they
might have. They were both 20 years of age.

Also interesting is that they would not say that the 2nd coming
comprised a "literal" destruction of the heavens and earth and were
quite willing to see how these "cosmic disturbances" were prevalent in
the OT including the one of "super light" in Isaiah 30:26. They
understood how the sun, moon and stars could refer to leadership or
individuals of nations from Genesis 37:9.

I was also able to confirm that they do indeed
believe the beloved disciple (John 21:22) is alive and living upon the earth today.

They had another appointment and so had to leave.

The quote from C.S. Lewis:

The apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. This is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.

I personally believe that C.S. Lewis is the embarassment, not Jesus. Please note that C.S. Lewis was a futurist...