Chiming in.
TK wrote:BUT:
Genesis 3:22-24:
Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil, and now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever" – therefore, the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
AND:
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return." Gen 3:19
it sure seems like physical death was a symptom of the fall.
Theophilus and I discussed this @
[quote="On the "Tree of Life" thread:
http://www.theos.org/forum/posting.php? ... =67&p=1293 I"]I've always wondered what Ge 2:17 means {???}
"...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Most of us have heard this death was "spiritual death" and that "physical death was delayed." True,
"in Adam all die," wrote Paul. We know we die physically, at least, as a result of "the fall of Adam" or since sin entered into the world.
Some have interpreted the phrase,
"...in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" to be God's way of saying,
"You will become mortal." I lean toward this interpretation and can't quite "unravel" {for lack of vocabulary} if Adam and Eve "died spiritually" when they ate from the Knowledge Tree.
Had they eaten from the Tree of Life first, this could be a natural conclusion. Yet had they eaten from this they would have lived forever...
unless....
But, of course, things didn't happen that way....[/quote]
Copy & paste from same Tree of Life thread:
In any event, I've wondered if Adam & Eve didn't eat from the Tree of Life because, well, they were already alive weren't they? Everything was going along in their lives {new though they be}....
Genesis 3 (ESV)
22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—" 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
Did Adam & Eve, with their new "wisdom," learn that the Tree of Life would give them
neverending life? It's likely, Ge 3:22. Earlier it was the Tree they apparently thought they didn't need to eat from.
After speaking to them {in Ge 3 which I haven't posted}, God wasted no time in kicking them out of the Garden and put a "quick seal" on the Tree of Life lest Adam
"reach out his hand" and eat some on the way out!!! God, obviously, didn't want that to happen.
At any rate, had God not taken action in banning them from the Garden, they could have eaten from the Tree of Life and lived forever. God knew the Tree of Life gave this, and now, they did.
End of copy & paste
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And to quote TK again, where he wrote:it sure seems like physical death was a symptom of the fall.
Romas 5 (NASB)
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
TK, the scriptures clearly teach death is due to sin {as I'm sure you agree}. Many, many more passages could be cited to prove the point.
Getting back to my "quoting" from the Tree of Life thread; it doesn't seem to me Adam & Eve were created "immortal." It seems they were originally in a "neutral" state of existence. That is, after being made, they had the option to eat from the Tree of Life, but made the other choice {eating from the Knowedge Tree of good & evil}. Even
after eating from it and being sentenced to death, Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life, apparently on his way out of the Garden. But God stopped that possibility
"lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever" {Ge 3:22}.
I might be repeating myself here.
At any rate, the Bible doesn't teach Adam & Eve were created immortal, afaik. They were in a preemptive state of existence. In other words, the options for them were there, they chose wrongly, and, as a result
"just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" {Ro 5:12}. Btw, this verse sums up the Jewish view on "original sin." Jews, of course, don't believe in the Augustinian view on it {Paul included, and actually, Jews
deny "original sin"}. But what we see in Ro 5:17 is that via Adam's sin, death became the destiny of his offspring, not because they {we} "do" Adam's sin, but simply because
"all sinned." We've inherited a world tainted by sin and its effects. We have a propensity toward sinning and this propensity {as human frailty} causes all of us to sin: but yet we
do the sinning and are, therefore, held accountable for it.
I suppose I have points to list in this post:
1) The Bible doesn't say Adam "died spiritually." For Jews, and the biblical authors by extension, physical death and spiritual death are inseparable. They're intertwined, wrapped around each other, and cannot be separated into two distinct categories.
2) Physical death {without separating spiritual death into another thing} is the result of the Fall of Adam. We all fall like Adam did when we sin because we're "in Adam" but he's not responsible for my sins any more than I am for his.
3) We all will die a physical death whether we're Christians or not.
4) I'm not in a position to say full-preterists aren't "true Christians."
5) But a denial of physical death as being a result of the Fall of Adam is unbiblical.
6) Full-preterists completely redefine the biblical teaching on hamartiology {doctrine of sin}.
7) I think they're wrong on this and other points but....
8) Attempting to discuss things with them seems next to impossible and, thus, pointless.
Thanks for letting me go on a bit,
Redemption is the reverse process of restoration unto God. Period. We are made alive in Christ. Period. It has nothing to with our shell. Does the body get saved? Or does the spirit/soul get saved? You decide...