Questions for Allyn about the full-preterist view

[Allyn]

That being said, I retract what I said on "quasi-gnostic," Allyn.
I need to study this out in more detail...and take notes this time.

Thank you Rick. You have a good weekend as well.

[Allyn]

If I had to pick one problem with full preterism it would be best summarized in 1 Cor 15 speaking about the resurrection:

Hi again Sean,

So, is it that you struggle with understanding the resurrection or is it the timing of that resurrection that bothers you most?

It would seem to me that if we first understand and believe the 2nd coming at the last tumpet then we would be able to accept the resurrection whether we fully understand it.

Isaiah 27:13
So it shall be in that day:
The great trumpet will be blown;
They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria,
And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt,
And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 27:12
And it shall come to pass in that day
That the LORD will thresh,
From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt;
And you will be gathered one by one,
O you children of Israel.

Matthew 24:31
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Jesus told His disciples when the Last Trumpet would sound

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Luke 21:20
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Matthew 24:30-31
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 16:28
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Luke 21:28
Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Luke 21:31
So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.

Matthew 24:34
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Luke 21:22
For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Matthew 27:22-25
Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!”
Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person.[d] You see to it.”
And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”

Luke 23:27-28
And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him. But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

John told the 7 churches when the Last Trumpet would sound

Rev. 1:1,3
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ. God gave it
to Him to disclose and make known to His servants
certain things which must shortly and speedily come to pass in their entirety...for the time for them to be fulfilled is near.

Rev. 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Rev. 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Rev. 11:2,8
And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
The great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev. 18:20
“Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”

Rev. 18:24
In her was found the blood of prophets and saints

Luke 13:33
it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.

Rev. 19:2
He has avenged on her the blood of His servants by her hand

Rev. 22:6
“These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.

Rev. 22:7
"Behold, I come quickly"

Rev. 22:10
“Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand."

Rev. 22:12
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Rev. 22:20
"Surely I am coming quickly."

[Sean]

Hi again Sean,

So, is it that you struggle with understanding the resurrection or is it the timing of that resurrection that bothers you most?

It would seem to me that if we first understand and believe the 2nd coming at the last tumpet then we would be able to accept the resurrection whether we fully understand it.

My concern is the reason we see death and the curse of the earth both mentioned in Genesis as being caused by the sin of man. If Jesus is said to defeat all his enemies, and Revelation says there will be no more curse, then why can I not believe these things? In other words, there is still sin, death, the curse of the land, pain during child birth and enemies of Christ. For this reason I have to say that all enemies have not yet been defeated. These are literal curses. If Christ return in 70AD did not put a stop to these things, then He failed. You can claim He reigns over heaven, but not the earth (if in fact nothing more is expected to change here). God never cursed heaven, He cursed the earth and said there is a time coming when there will be no more curse (Rev 22:3).

[Allyn]

Hi again Sean,

So, is it that you struggle with understanding the resurrection or is it the timing of that resurrection that bothers you most?

It would seem to me that if we first understand and believe the 2nd coming at the last tumpet then we would be able to accept the resurrection whether we fully understand it.

My concern is the reason we see death and the curse of the earth both mentioned in Genesis as being caused by the sin of man. If Jesus is said to defeat all his enemies, and Revelation says there will be no more curse, then why can I not believe these things? In other words, there is still sin, death, the curse of the land, pain during child birth and enemies of Christ. For this reason I have to say that all enemies have not yet been defeated. These are literal curses. If Christ return in 70AD did not put a stop to these things, then He failed. You can claim He reigns over heaven, but not the earth (if in fact nothing more is expected to change here). God never cursed heaven, He cursed the earth and said there is a time coming when there will be no more curse (Rev 22:3).

Hi Sean,

I understand your concerns, I truly do. But when does a person finally put aside their doubts and simple go with what the Scriptures are saying? It seems to me that we look for things to have their fulfillment in line with our current understanding rather than allowing the truth to really lay hold of us.

Paul said in Philippians 3 that he had forsaken his own righteousness and trusted only and completely in Christ "in order that" he might attain the resurrection from the dead.

Those of us who have trusted Christ in the New Covenant age, have life and do not need to be resurrected.

John 11:25-26 (NKJV) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus is saying, "He who believes in me shall live (spiritually), even if he dies (physically), and everyone who lives (physically), and believes in Me, shall never die (spiritually)."

Two categories of believers are discussed: those who would die before the resurrection and those who would not. For those who died under the Old Covenant, He was the Resurrection, but for those who lived into the days of the New Covenant, He is the Life.

Under the New Covenant, there is no death, spiritually speaking:

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 (NKJV) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:4 (NKJV) "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Where there is no death, there is no need of a resurrection. We have eternal life and can never die spiritually. Therefore, we don't need a resurrection. At death, we go immediately to heaven in our spiritual body.

The resurrection was a one time event in which the Old Testament saints were brought out of Hades and finally overcame death to be with the Lord. We have put on immortality and will put on our immortal body when we die physically. As believers, we live in the presence of God, and in physical death, we simply drop the flesh and dwell only in the spiritual realm.

[Sean]

Where there is no death, there is no need of a resurrection. We have eternal life and can never die spiritually. Therefore, we don't need a resurrection. At death, we go immediately to heaven in our spiritual body.

The resurrection was a one time event in which the Old Testament saints were brought out of Hades and finally overcame death to be with the Lord. We have put on immortality and will put on our immortal body when we die physically. As believers, we live in the presence of God, and in physical death, we simply drop the flesh and dwell only in the spiritual realm.

Then why were Hymenaeus and Philetus wrong (2 Tim 2:17)? Since spiritual rebirth began at pentecost (if not slightly sooner) then what Hymenaeus and Philetus were saying should have been correct.

Under the New Covenant, there is no death, spiritually speaking:

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 (NKJV) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:4 (NKJV) "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Where there is no death, there is no need of a resurrection. We have eternal life and can never die spiritually. Therefore, we don't need a resurrection. At death, we go immediately to heaven in our spiritual body.

I never knew there was a biblical concept known as spiritual death. I know some people equate this with the second death, but I thought the spirit was the "stuff" that lived on after death. I guess I don't understand the concept of "spirit resurrection". Spirits weren't cut off from the tree of life "else they eat and live forever" (Gen 3:22). Men made of flesh and bone were cut off from it. Nor are spirits in the tombs/graves of the dead. I guess I just don't get it. But I am trying to understand.

[Allyn]

Then why were Hymenaeus and Philetus wrong (2 Tim 2:17)? Since spiritual rebirth began at pentecost (if not slightly sooner) then what Hymenaeus and Philetus were saying should have been correct.

Sean, I'm not sure I am following you here.

Phil and Hymenaeus were preaching that the resurrection had already occurred. I think the church, by and large, believe that the resurrection is going to be a grave-emptying event and maybe this is why many today believe those two fellows could easily be proven wrong. However is that really what the resurrection is for us? We know that Jesus rose from the dead and that His body was not there but we are never told our resurrection will be like His but instead that our bodies would be changed.

Take those two fellows once again. They said the resurrection had happened. If people in Paul's time believed that the resurrection had already happened, it means it wasn't a physical, come-out-of-the-grave-resurrection and Paul wasn't disputing that.

Paul kicked back on them good alright, but because they were wrong. When they said the resurrection had happened, it hadn't yet.

The issue here is that if the resurrection was an out of the grave thing, those people would have been out of the grave walking around if Phil and Hymen had told the truth. Every body would KNOW that the resurrection had happened.

HOWEVER, the resurrection is NOT an out of the grave thing, so the people didn't know if Hymen and Phil lied or if the spiritual resurrection was over.

Hymen and Phil made their statement about 10 years before the spiritual resurrection took place.


18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some. (2 Timothy 2:18)

The verse is very clear! However, I think those shaken in faith knew the resurrection would occur at the coming/parousia of the Lord during their generation. Thus, supposing the resurrection and coming of the Lord had already past were shaken in faith. Compare, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

How could they believe the resurrection and coming/parousia of the Lord was already past if that would be a world ending event that could not be missed by anyone?


I am not trying to preach the resurrection out of its proper timing as Hymenaeus and Philetus were doing. I believe Jesus was resurrected from the grave on the third day, and appeared to his disciples with nail prints in his hands and wounds in his side to prove to the disciples He was the risen Lord, that was crucified on the cross.
I also believe the dead in the grave were resurrected to heaven and given a spiritual body, at the coming/Parousia. I believe after their resurrection, we no longer sleep in the graves but immediately go to heaven at death (Revelation 14:13; 2 Corinthains 5:1-8).

[psychohmike]

I personally think that Revelation 20 along with the New Testament suggests two resurrections and two deaths. As John the Baptist walked onto the scene...Old Covenant Israel was dead or in sheol. Hosea 13 makes this abundantly clear. The death that they had died was "sin" death. But it would not be forever.

Hosea 13:1 When Ephraim(Israel) spoke, trembling, He exalted himself in Israel but when he offended through Baal worship, he died.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction!

Sounds familiar doesn't it.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

And then there is the connection between 1 Corinthians 15:54 and Isaiah 25:8

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.

Which is then quoted as being fulfilled in Revelation 7:17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes," and Revelation 21:4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

And Revelation 21:4-5 is quite clearly connected to a New Covenant relationship with those who are in Christ.

Which brings us full circle.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life(Resurrection #1), and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.(Resurrection #2)

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,(<----First death and resurrection = eternal life for those who are in Christ.)

Which leads me to conclude that at the end of the age(Old Covenant age) in some sense there was a collective or general resurrection in which all of those that had physically died from Adam forward, until that time, would stand before God to give an answer based upon their works. Which is not to be confused the resurrection found in Ezekiel 37 and Daniel 12.(first resurrection)

Pmike

[Sean]

Take those two fellows once again. They said the resurrection had happened. If people in Paul's time believed that the resurrection had already happened, it means it wasn't a physical, come-out-of-the-grave-resurrection and Paul wasn't disputing that.

If my position is correct, Paul was disputing that. See more on this below.

The issue here is that if the resurrection was an out of the grave thing, those people would have been out of the grave walking around if Phil and Hymen had told the truth. Every body would KNOW that the resurrection had happened.

HOWEVER, the resurrection is NOT an out of the grave thing, so the people didn't know if Hymen and Phil lied or if the spiritual resurrection was over.

How could they believe the resurrection and coming/parousia of the Lord was already past if that would be a world ending event that could not be missed by anyone?

I don't think this is likely, but I do understand your argument. The problem with this argument is that it assumes too much.

It assumes:
- That people would look in the tombs for loved ones to be missing/resurrected.
- That tombs would even be opened up to view the inside and see if loved ones were missing/resurrected. (They may not have opened them to look)
- That Hymenaeus and Philetus didn't teach the resurrection mentioned in Matt 27:52 was the resurrection and destroy the faith of those with loved ones that weren't raised.

Your interpretation of Hymenaeus and Philetus teaching also assumes something else. That the people couldn't be mislead about what the resurrection was. If Paul taught a physical resurrection and Hymenaeus and Philetus taught a spiritual resurrection the people could still be mislead (even though no bodies came out of the tombs) because people are easily lead astray. I'll give you an example:

2Th 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2Th 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

People were apparently concerned about the day of the Lord, wondering if it had come. Yet Paul shoots down this notion by pointing out specific things that must happen first. Apostasy, the man of sin being revealed and him sitting in the temple of God. Paul then says something very important: "Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?". Even though Paul had already explained what events to look out for, the people were still concerned, wondering if the day of the Lord had already come! How can this be if Paul already told them the signs to look out for. Signs that had not yet been fulfilled. This is no different than Hymenaeus and Philetus teaching the resurrection had passed, even though bodies were still in their tombs. People are just easy to lead astray. Peter says so himself:

2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways,

Why? Ask them. I don't know why.

All we know for sure is that if we read through Paul's letters we see several times when Paul has to repeat himself because the people didn't listen or disregarded him. So I don't think the argument you make about the resurrection being non-physical otherwise people wouldn't have been fooled is very weak and seems to be weakened by other passages were Christians were led astray by many things they should not have been, including the 2 Thes 2 passage.

I guess anything is possible, I just am not convinced of that interpretation.