Fully predestinated, called, and justified???

[steve7150]

Just a quick side question. What do you have against believers someday having a glorified physical body, like Jesus had post-resurrection? You seem like you would be bummed out if that were true, but I think it would be awesome.








He's bummed out because it did'nt happen in 70AD, so thus he must move to plan B.

[Mellontes]

Just a quick side question. What do you have against believers someday having a glorified physical body, like Jesus had post-resurrection? You seem like you would be bummed out if that were true, but I think it would be awesome.

He's bummed out because it did'nt happen in 70AD, so thus he must move to plan B.

I'd even be pleased to answer your snide remarks if you were willing to provide Scriptures to back up your assertions. Like where does it say Jesus had a glorified physical body? I agree that Jesus' body was glorified, but it was not his physical body.

[Michelle]

Just a quick side question. What do you have against believers someday having a glorified physical body, like Jesus had post-resurrection? You seem like you would be bummed out if that were true, but I think it would be awesome.

He's bummed out because it did'nt happen in 70AD, so thus he must move to plan B.

I'd even be pleased to answer your snide remarks if you were willing to provide Scriptures to back up your assertions. Like where does it say Jesus had a glorified physical body? I agree that Jesus' body was glorified, but it was not his physical body.

What, then, happened to his physical body?

[Mellontes]

This was the normal Hebraic understanding of the death. The ministration of death (the law, old covenant) were not statutes dealing with physical death, were they? They were dealing with being out of covenant with God. These (along with the nation of Israel's practice of them) would represent the shadows and types eventually fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ, the new covenant. I am fairly certain you would agree with that.

I'll get back to you on this sometime soon. I'm not sure I entirely agree.

Of course Paul was writing to gentiles who would have no knowledge of the so called hebraic understanding.

Do you mean you'll get back to me in a "preterist" soon or a "futuristic" soon. I ask because the "preterist" soon means soon, but your futurist soon, at hand, near, nigh, shortly coming to pass, I come quickly, the last hour, etc. means almost 2,000 years and counting...

Are you a Gentile? Do you have an understanding of Jewish things? Probably not...but you should. The Bible was predominantly written by Jews and given to a predominantly Jewish audience. If you don't understand the Jewish 1st century culture, how can you determine what was meant? Futurism, for the most part, likes to exegete the NT based upon a 21st century Western cultural and scientific understanding rather than upon a 1st century Eastern Hebrew understanding. That is the prime reason why Paul preached nothing but was contained in the law and the prophets (Acts 24:14 - written from Rome with many unbelieving Jews having access to Paul).

Why would Romans 3:21 exist if the Gentiles had zero understanding of Jewish things? Why did Paul quote the OT in Romans 1:17? Who is Paul speaking to in Romans 2:24-29? Did you study the OT in church or in your own personal study time? Do you understand the need for doing that? Do you think it was much easier for the Romans to understand Jewish things since they were in charge of the Jewish affairs and the fact that they lived among them?

Are you aware of the considerable amount of Old Testament Scriptures that are quoted to these, as you would say, unknowledgeable Romans? Here is an extensive list (with the OT reference at the end of each verse), although not exhaustive:

Romans 1:17b - 'The just shall live by faith' (Habakkuk 2:4).

Romans 2:6 - 'render to every man according to his works' (Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12),

Romans 2:24b - 'the very name of God is cursed among the Gentiles because of the behaviour of Jews?' (Isaiah 52:5; Ezekiel 36:22)

Romans 3:4b - 'That you may be justified in your words, and may overcome when you are judged' (Psalm 51:4).

Romans 3:10b-12 - 'There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one' (Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Ecclesiastes 7:20).

Romans 3:13a - 'Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practised deceit' (Psalm 5:9);

Romans 3:13b - 'the poison of asps is under their lips' (Psalm 140:3),

Romans 3:14 - 'whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness' (Psalm 10:7).

Romans 3:15-17 - 'Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known' (Isaiah 59:7,8).

Romans 3:18 - 'There is no fear of God before their eyes' (Psalm 36:1).

Romans 4:3a - 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness' (Genesis 15:6).

Romans 4:7-8 - ''Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin' (Psalm 32:1,2).

Romans 4:18b - ''I have made you a father of many nations' (Genesis 17:5).

Romans 4:18d - ' 'your descendants' (Genesis 15:5).

Romans 4:22b - ' 'was accounted to him for righteousness' (Genesis 15:6).

Romans 7:7b - 'You shall not covet' (Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21).

Romans 8:36b - 'For your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter' (Psalm 44:22)

Romans 9:7b - 'in Isaac your seed shall be called' (Genesis 21:12).

Romans 9:9b - 'At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son' (Genesis 18:10,14).

Romans 9:12b - 'The older shall serve the younger' (Genesis 25:23).

Romans 9:23b - 'Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated' (Malachi 1:2,3).

Romans 9:14b - 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion' (Exodus 33:19).

Romans 9:17b - ''Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name shall be declared in all the earth' (Exodus 9:16).

Romans 9:20b - ' 'Why did you make me like this?' (Isaiah 29:16; 45:9)

Romans 9:25b - ''I will call them my people, who were not my people, and her beloved, who was not beloved' (Hosea 2:23).

Romans 9:26 - ''And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people, there they will be called sons of the living God' (Hosea 1:10).

Romans 9:27b - ''though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved. For he will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth' (Isaiah 10:22,23).

Romans 9:29b - ''Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom and we would have been made like Gomorrah' (Isaiah 1:9).

Romans 9:33b - 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offence, and whoever believes on him will not be put to shame' (Isaiah 8:14; 28:16).

Romans 10:5b - 'the man who does those things shall live by them' (Leviticus 18:5)

Romans 10:6b - ' 'Do not say in your heart, Who will ascend into heaven?' (Deuteronomy 30:12)

Romans 10:7b - ''who will descend into the abyss' (Deuteronomy 30:13)

Romans 10:8b - ''The word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart' (Deuteronomy 30:14).

Romans 10:11b - ''Whoever believes on him will not be put to shame' (Isaiah 28:16).

Romans 10:13 - ''Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved' (Joel 2:32).

Romans 10:15b - 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!' (Isaiah 52:7; Nahum 1:15)

Romans 10:16b - 'Lord, who has believed our report?' (Isaiah 53:1)

Romans 10:18b - 'Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their word to the ends of the world' (Psalm 19:4).

Romans 10:19b - 'I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation. I will anger you by a foolish nation' (Deuteronomy 32:21).

Romans 10:20b - 'I was found by those who did not seek me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for me' (Isaiah 65:1).

Romans 10:21b - 'All day long I have stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people' (Isaiah 65:2).

Romans 11:3 - 'Lord, they have killed your prophets, and torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life' (1 Kings 19:10,14).

Romans 11:4b - ''I have reserved for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal' (1 Kings 19:18).

Romans 11:8b - 'God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day' (Deuteronomy 29:4; Isaiah 29:10).

Romans 11:9b-10 - 'Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them; let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always' (Psalm 69:22,23).

Romans 11:26b-27 - 'The deliverer will come out of Zion, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob, for this is may covenant with them, when I take away their sins' (Isaiah 59:20,21).

Romans 11:34 - 'Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become his counsellor?' (Isaiah 40:13)

Romans 11:35 - 'Or who has first given to him and it shall be repaid to him?' (Job 41:11)

Romans 15:9b - 'For this reason I will confess to you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name' (2 Samuel 22:50; Psalm 18:49).

Romans 15:10b - 'Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people!' (Deuteronomy 32:43)

Romans 15:11b - 'Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles! Laud him, all you peoples!' (Psalm 117:1)

Romans 15:12b - 'There shall be a root of Jesse; and he who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, in him the Gentiles shall hope' (Isaiah 11:10).

Romans 15:21b - 'To whom he was not announced, they shall see; and those who have not heard shall understand' (Isaiah 52:1)

[Michelle]

Mellontes, you asked a lot of questions. Are they directed at me or at Steve7150? I'm the one who said I would respond soon, and I mean that in the normal meaning of soon. Steve is the one who made the comment about the audience being gentiles. (Which I assumed was the Corinthian audience, but could be wrong)

[steve7150]

I'd even be pleased to answer your snide remarks if you were willing to provide Scriptures to back up your assertions. Like where does it say Jesus had a glorified physical body? I agree that Jesus' body was glorified, but it was not his physical body.
Mellontes






It's time to answer questions when folks ask, instead of coming back at them with a pre-packaged list of your own questions from the gospel of full preterism. -so Instead of playing cat and mouse address the issues directly as you know full well where the verses are and you know full well what the issues are regarding your system of full preterism but you want to lead people to "discover" for themselves the real meanings behind your pre-packaged verses. You can call my attitude snide if you wish , i on the other hand see your method as manipulative.
As you know scripture says Jesus resurrected body was "flesh and bone" and Jesus told Thomas to touch him and he ate fish in front of them, yet he did also walk through walls so perhaps being supernatural he could transform his body into a different dimension to do this , yet it was Jesus himself who called his body "flesh and bone." That is physical , the supernatural part is from his glorification IMO and the crux of why you want to argue Jesus resurrection was not physical is because he was the firstfruits and then you can argue everyone else gets a spiritual resurrection and then you can argue 70AD was judgment day and there were spiritual resurrections.
Your system has many holes which have been brought up and never answered like,
There is a day of judgment in which everyone (EVERYONE) in the world is judged , all the living and dead stand before Christ
The day of judgment comes after a millineum period which any scholar will tell you is a long period of time, not 40 years.
There will be an end to evil
You made reference to "hebraic understanding" to support your case in Romans although i think after chap 2 Paul was speaking to gentiles, yet the hebraic understanding of resurrection was that it would be physical. -----------------------------------------------------------

[Mellontes]

Mellontes, you asked a lot of questions. Are they directed at me or at Steve7150? I'm the one who said I would respond soon, and I mean that in the normal meaning of soon. Steve is the one who made the comment about the audience being gentiles. (Which I assumed was the Corinthian audience, but could be wrong)

You are right Michelle. I attributed the "soon" as coming from Steve7150. The way he uses the pink font for quoting purposes is confusing. Both of our quotes are combined in pink font with no designated authorship...and I am pretty sure Steve7150 was saying that the Roman church was Gentile (which it was not - it was composed of both Jews and Gentiles). I can not help but think that Paul's associates continued in the same manner as Paul (by going to the synagogue) to preach the Gospel.

But I have just got to wonder...why is the word "soon" today given the meaning that it should have (soon) but yet all those similar kinds of words back in the first century are NOT given that normal meaning?

[Mellontes]

I'd even be pleased to answer your snide remarks if you were willing to provide Scriptures to back up your assertions. Like where does it say Jesus had a glorified physical body? I agree that Jesus' body was glorified, but it was not his physical body.
Mellontes


It's time to answer questions when folks ask, instead of coming back at them with a pre-packaged list of your own questions from the gospel of full preterism. -so Instead of playing cat and mouse address the issues directly as you know full well where the verses are and you know full well what the issues are regarding your system of full preterism but you want to lead people to "discover" for themselves the real meanings behind your pre-packaged verses. You can call my attitude snide if you wish , i on the other hand see your method as manipulative.
As you know scripture says Jesus resurrected body was "flesh and bone" and Jesus told Thomas to touch him and he ate fish in front of them, yet he did also walk through walls so perhaps being supernatural he could transform his body into a different dimension to do this , yet it was Jesus himself who called his body "flesh and bone." That is physical , the supernatural part is from his glorification IMO and the crux of why you want to argue Jesus resurrection was not physical is because he was the firstfruits and then you can argue everyone else gets a spiritual resurrection and then you can argue 70AD was judgment day and there were spiritual resurrections.
Your system has many holes which have been brought up and never answered like,
There is a day of judgment in which everyone (EVERYONE) in the world is judged , all the living and dead stand before Christ
The day of judgment comes after a millineum period which any scholar will tell you is a long period of time, not 40 years.
There will be an end to evil
You made reference to "hebraic understanding" to support your case in Romans although i think after chap 2 Paul was speaking to gentiles, yet the hebraic understanding of resurrection was that it would be physical. -----------------------------------------------------------

Steve, with all due respect, there are so many assertions in what you said that I am unable to comment. If, like look2Jesus, you would like to start your own separate thread with one verse and your exegesis of it, perhaps something can be accomplished. Your attitude would indicate otherwise, I believe...

As for your definition of 1,000, I suppose God does NOT own the cattle on hill # 1001. It indicates fullness and is not related to a specific amount of time, either lengthy or a short while. But I suppose you will reject that based upon some scholar's ideas...

And according to your understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:50, "flesh and blood" can NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven...yet you believe Christ was "flesh and blood" after His resurrection.

[Michelle]

This was the normal Hebraic understanding of the death. The ministration of death (the law, old covenant) were not statutes dealing with physical death, were they? They were dealing with being out of covenant with God. These (along with the nation of Israel's practice of them) would represent the shadows and types eventually fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ, the new covenant. I am fairly certain you would agree with that.

I'll get back to you on this sometime soon. I'm not sure I entirely agree.

First of all, it was the phrase "ministration of death" that made me think the discussion had shifted to the Corinthian church.

Next, what do you mean by the death. Your use of underlining seems to indicate this is specialized terminology. Is it, or was it just emphasis on your part? Do you have scripture that would point to this?

I would agree with your statement that Jesus fulfilled the Law. I agree with the statement that the Law was a ministry that brought death. I don't think I agree with your rhetorical question, "...were not statutes dealing with physical death, were they?" I think they were.

Also, I'd love to know what your answer is to TK, who asked what you have against a bodily resurrection in this post.

And, do you believe there was a point in time when a resurrection occurred? 70 AD?

Finally, a few times now you said that Jesus was not resurrected in his physical body. The tomb was empty. What happened to his body?

[Paidion]

And according to your understanding of 1 Corinthians 15:50, "flesh and blood" can NOT inherit the kingdom of heaven...yet you believe Christ was "flesh and blood" after His resurrection.

Second century gnostics also used I Cor 15:50 in their attempt to prove that there was no physical resurrection. Second-century Christian writer Irenæus explained the Christian position as follows:

Among the other [truths] proclaimed by the apostle, there is also this one, "That flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." This is [the passage] which is adduced by all the heretics in support of their folly...to point out that the handiwork of God is not saved...Those then, as many as they be, who have not that which saves and forms [us] into life [eternal], shall be, and shall be called, [mere] flesh and blood; for these are they who have not the Spirit of God in themselves. Wherefore menn of this stamp are spoken of by the Lord as "dead"; for, says He, "Let the dead bury their dead," because they have not the Spirit which quickens man.

On the other hand, as many as fear God and trust in His Son's advent, and who through faith establish the Spirit of God in their hearts, --- such men as these shall be properly called both "pure" and "spiritual", and "those living to God", because they possess the Spirit of the Father, who purifies man, and raises him up to the life of God...

The flesh, therefore, when destitute of the Spirit of God, is dead, not having life, and cannot possess the kingdom of God.

From the Ante-Nicene Fathers
Irenæus "Against Heresies" Book V, Chapter 9, Sections 1-3
I