PRETERIST---->PRE-MILLENIAL

[Guest]

Thanks, Sean, for that clarification. My own assessment of Preterists' views about the Great Tribulation Period, was based only on my impressions in reading their literature.

Jim, I fully agree with you that the eschatology of the pre-trib rapturists is strongly related to their decisions concerning such matters as future planning, including environmental considerations.

One man in my locale, who had a large family counselled his sons not to marry, since "The Lord is coming very soon." And all but one of them accepted their father's instruction ------ until after his death. The one who married while his father still lived was considered to be "the black sheep" of the family.

[Guest]

Jim from Covina,

You made some good points which got me thinking today (and here it was supposed to be a lazy rainy day.)

Could it be that if a person's eschatology moves them to act a certain way it might be more based on how strongly they hold their views? For instance, I was influenced by Hal Lindsay in the 70's, but I neither married young to get it in before the rapture, nor refused to marry like the people Paidion knew. Personally, I don't think I was ever totally convinced that the rapture was imminent, even though if you would have asked me, I probably would have said I believed in a pre-trib rapture, but I just didn't think about it very often.

NOW, some will respond that we should do good things cuz God says so. I dont disagree, but sometimes that answer is too simplistic and not intellectually satisfying when there are objections to acting so from common sense, as per the examples above.

Are you saying that even though God commands us to do certain things, it's up to us to use common sense whether or not to obey? I'm thinking that it's not a good idea to disobey just because you've got it all figured out. In my experience most obedience to God goes somewhat counter to "common sense."

[Guest]

MIchelle said.....
Are you saying that even though God commands us to do certain things, it's up to us to use common sense whether or not to obey? I'm thinking that it's not a good idea to disobey just because you've got it all figured out. In my experience most obedience to God goes somewhat counter to "common sense.

I knew i wasnt clear on that last paragraph. Let me restate what i meant.

Often the response that i have heard, within the rapturist paradigm, regarding taking care of the environment, helping others in 3rd world countries in long term projects, building bible colleges, etc, would be argued that one still must do these things, because of Gods commands. BUT, what i mean by being contrary to "common sense", is that that whole idea of doing those good acts is contrary to our common sense, in that it is irrational to do so; specifically because those actions will be of no avail, per the impending rapture and tribulation.

So i think, although it is commanded by God (which may be debatable), it is irrational to do so. But would God command something irrational. Its possible, although i dont think likely, per his attributes, etc. NOr do i think we would be held accountable for such things, especially since our reason, or conceptual structure, cognitive faculty, (or whatever) is from God in our creation.

I would disagree that being obedient to God is counter to common sense. I think general moral principles are in natural law, and we can discover these through our reason, if not intuition (whatever that is). Thats why almost all people think its wrong to kill innocent babies. ONe among many examples.

Secondly, following the commands generally aid in human hapiness, which is most likely a human end. Perhaps a common sense tune-up is needed. hehe. It is also a fact that often our common sense is false in some issues,events, etc, so not a problem if common sense a prior does not line up with some commands. (of course, like i hinted to earlier, perhaps the commands arent really commands, hmmm)

RE: your first point michelle. It is possible and probable that desires and strength of belief, i.e strong or weak belief, do play the part in motivation. But that i think is irrelevant to the claim that eschatology determines what one's actions will be regarding particular issues. Whether they will actually act upon their belief or not, is not the issue that i raised. That is a whole other category of why christians dont live as christians. Thats an american christian ethnocetric laziness uncaring dilemma that i believe is caused my our materialistic consumeristic one dimensional society that is produced by capitalism.

My point was to challenge TK on his attitude toward the unimportance of eschatological beliefs. And by unimportance, i mean not necessarily as important as "loving our neighbor", or other ways of living. Beliefs and doctrines dictate the way we live out our faith.

I hope i cleared up my vagueness in my earlier post.

JIm





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[Guest]

Hi Jim,

I appreciate you taking the time to post that reply. You did make your point more clear, thanks.

RE: your first point michelle. It is possible that desires and strength of belief, i.e strong or weak belief, do play the part in motivation. But that i think is irrelevant to the claim that eschatology determines what one's actions will be regarding particular issues. Whether they will actually act upon their belief or not, is not the issue that i raised. That is a whole other category of why christians dont live as christians. Thats an american christian ethnocetric laziness uncaring dilemma that i believe is caused my our materialistic consumeristic one dimensional society that is produced by capitalism.

Um, OK. I think I agree with you, but I have to think about it a little bit more.

By the way, I thought you did raise the issue about how Christians will act when you said this last night:

BUT, one thing i havent heard yet which i think is very important to this, is how eschatology can affect how one acts.....i.e. toward the environment, socially, false hopes or teachings (which can lead to bad decisions, acts), preparing for your future, etc.

About obedience and common sense: maybe I'm using the term "common sense" incorrectly. What I mean is what makes sense to the world. I agree with this statement of yours:

I would disagree that being obedient to God is counter to common sense. I think general moral principles are in natural law, and we can discover these through our reason, if not intuition (whatever that is). Thats why most people think its wrong to kill innocent babies. ONe among many examples.

but, I think that the following instructions would fly in the face of common sense as the world sees it:

Go the extra mile
Turn the other cheek
Love your neighbor as yourself
Love your enemies
Pray for your persecutors
Do not worry about tomorrow
Seek first the kingdom of God
Lay up treasure in heaven
Count it all joy when you fall into various trials

PsychoMike ~ sorry to get so off topic...

[Guest]

Jim--

i understand what you are saying, but i PERSONALLY have never changed anything about the way i live my life based on eschatology, probably because i have always viewed it as a mysterious subject and was never fully convinced of the correctness of any one position. much like what michelle said. i would never be so bold to assume that my view is absolutely correct, so as to actually make life-changing decisions based on that view. for example, when i was certain about the "left behind" view, i wasnt out burning down forests and polluting the oceans just for the heck of it. nor have i become more "environmentally concerned" now that my views are evolving toward partial preterism.

TK

[Guest]

Jim wrote

I know this may sound really dumb, but many years ago, my friends and i lived with NO concern regarding our future, i.e. savings accounts, investments , even educational future, etc.

Yes, we can get a little carried away with eschatological views at times. I think that was partly what TK was getting at. I do understand what you're trying to say though.

But, if the plantet is not going to be destroyed, then we have many good reasons for taking care of our environment.

I actually saw the validity of caring for the environment before I even heard the word Preterist. I found it strange how certain Christians would show little concern for things like pollution that causes alarmingly high rates of asthma etc... and then decry the evils of smoking which “destroyed God's temple.”
Caring for the environment, in my mind, goes back once again to TK's original point. Love your neighbour as yourself.

Thanks for your input Jim.

[Guest]

but, I think that the following instructions would fly in the face of common sense as the world sees it:

Go the extra mile
Turn the other cheek
Love your neighbor as yourself
Love your enemies
Pray for your persecutors
Do not worry about tomorrow
Seek first the kingdom of God
Lay up treasure in heaven
Count it all joy when you fall into various trials

I think the world would go along with some of these.

Go the extra mile. Doing more than a person asks for is a good business practice and can result in increased income.

Turn the other cheek A person of the world might realize that this practice results in better human relations, and therfore a more pleasant life and possibly more income.

Do not worry about tomorrow. Most people realize that worry results in mental dis-ease and physical disease. They know that worry accomplishes nothing. They know that they are happier without it.

However, all of the rest of them seem contrary to "worldy sense".

[Guest]

I think the world would go along with some of these.

Go the extra mile. Doing more than a person asks for is a good business practice and can result in increased income.

Well that's true if it's a good business strategy, but I think the example is about doing more than is required of you.

Turn the other cheek A person of the world might realize that this practice results in better human relations, and therfore a more pleasant life and possibly more income.

Again... maybe...but I really don't know many people who willingly allow another person to attack them without retaliation.

Do not worry about tomorrow. Most people realize that worry results in mental dis-ease and physical disease. They know that worry accomplishes nothing. They know that they are happier without it.

I'll give you this one, although many, many people have pensions, IRAs, annuities, life insurance, etc. I think they may have a little concern about the future.

Early happy birthday, Paidion!