This generation will not pass away until ... what happens?

[Mellontes]

Well it definitely was future from the time that it was written. But not thousands of years away. Jesus did say that the events written in the book were "Not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand."

You see Pai...You MUST interpret this passage within the constraints of when Jesus said that it's fulfillment would take place. Otherwise we can make scripture say whatever we want it too.

Consider 2 Timothy 4:6;9 "For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand...Be diligent to come to me quickly"


Using your method of interpretation I could just as well say that Paul is still in prison...Still waiting to be poured out as a drink offering. And Timothy...He's sitting there waiting with all intention to come to Paul...Eventually. But when he does come it will be to Paul in the blink of an eye.

The time statements found and used by the authors of the Bible have to have some kind of normative meaning.

Somehow it seems that when the Scripture speaks of some event or time being "near" it does not necessarily mean "near" in the same sense that we would use the word. For example, the following passage seems to identify Christ's second coming with "the Day of the Lord". Paul seems to be referring to what he wrote in I Thess 4, concerning the Lord coming with a shout, the dead in Christ being raised, and we who are alive at the time, being caught up together with them.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 RSV

Paul says "the man of lawlessness" will be revealed prior to the day of the Lord. The early Christian writers identified that man with "the Beast" (or the personal Antichrist), who will head that rebellion before Christ comes.

In any case, Christ's second coming, or "the day of the Lord" has not occurred. It is still in the future. But the Old Testament writers stated that for them the Day of the Lord was near:

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come!
Ezekiel 30:3 For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near; it will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations.
Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is near, and as destruction from the Almighty it comes.
Joel 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming, it is near.
Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Obadiah 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the nations. As you have done, it shall be done to you, your deeds shall return on your own head.
Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, near and hastening fast; the sound of the day of the LORD is bitter, the mighty man cries aloud there.

So if the coming of that great "day of the Lord" was "near" in the days of these OT writers, then surely it was also "near" in the days in which John wrote Revelation. But that does not force us to accept 70 A.D. as being the time of Christ's second coming or the beginning of "the day of the Lord". If He came in 70 A.D., surely someone would have noticed. Is it not more rational to believe that His coming is yet future? He Himself warned about those who would say that Christ's coming was hidden from the world in general, that He is in the desert or in the inner rooms (Matt 24:26). He said that His coming would be like the lighting (of the sun) which shines from the east to the west. (Everyone will be aware of it). John indicated that when He comes "every eye will see Him" (Rev 1:7)

Perhaps if you looked into the CONTEXT of all those OT passages you quoted you would find that the "Day of the Lord" WAS near to them. Here let me do the first one:

Isaiah 13:6 - Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. [the passage you quoted]

Please note to whom the prophesied day of the Lord was to come upon:

Isaiah 13:1- The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

Isaiah 13 is about the destruction of Babylon by the Medes and Persians. Here is proof:

Isaiah 13:17 - Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

This is a past fulfilled prophecy. There are 24 Day of the Lord's mentioned in the OT Scriptures. The vast majority have been fulfilled and are past events. It would seem that you take the "Day of the Lord" as representing only one event in history. Isaiah 13 proves that view as completely false. Nor is it a type of the second coming (although the characteristics of the "Day of the Lord" are similar in nature). Why? Because the Medes would have to represent the Lord. And when the Medes would be destroyed, there goes the type...

Notice that God uses the Medes to come upon Babylon in divine destruction. Yet, its literary style is metaphor/simile - "as destruction from the Almighty"

This is so much fun, I'll think I'll do another one...

Ezekiel 30's context is the taking of Egypt (30:4) into captivity. Notice also it is a cloudy day ...again not a weather forecast! Notice also that other nations are to fall in this "Day of the Lord" (30:5). And who does God get to carry out His divine sentence for Him. Oh look! Its those nasty Babylonians! See Ezekiel 30:10 if you don't believe me... Now was it a physical, material, corporeal God that set a fire in Egypt (30:8) or was it the Babylonians that did the destructing?

Folks, this is what happens when one just tosses the context and determines to insert presuppositions upon the text...

Notice AGAIN the the clouds of judgment and God's glory (in vindication) are also mentioned in Joel 2:2 and Zephaniah 1:15...sheesh...

Still no answer to the 2 Thessalonian passage...<sigh>

[Conquest]

In a typological sense of course.

Jesus was the typical fulfillment of both Moses and King David.

How long was it from the Moses' exodus to the destruction of Jericho? 40 years.

How long was it from Jesus' exodus*(see footnote below) to the destruction of Jerusalem? 40 years.

How long was King David's reign over Israel? 40 years.

When does the Bible say that Jesus began His reign...Peter tells us in Acts 2:28-39.

Now...I know you might suggest that I have a problem in that I am spirituallizing too much in trying to shoehorn Jesus' reign into my eschatological paradigm. Well...Even the futurist that interprets passages quite literally has a problem with this passage as well. Why you ask...Because the passage you quote has an end to Christ's reign, yet Revelation 11:15 has Christ reigning, "forever and ever."

And so it is my suggesting that in fulfilling what it is that Paul was speaking of in the passage you quoted above we must understand it as a typological fulfillment. I think the only defensible position to take regarding this passage is to realize that it cannot be speaking of a literal reign.

* Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.(the word translated "departure" is EXODUS in the Greek.)

I don’t know you or much about your past but apparently one of us has a misunderstanding of what typology means.

Webster’s defines typology as this,

1: a doctrine of theological types ; especially : one holding that things in Christian belief are prefigured or symbolized by things in the Old Testament

I trust you concede 1 Cor 15 is not in the OT.

Furthermore, Milton Terry in his work, Biblical Hermeneutics writes,

Types and symbols constitute a class of figures…..The resemble each other in being sensible representations of moral or religious truth, and may be defined, in general, as figures of thought in which material objects are made to convey vivid spiritual conceptions to the mind. Crab defines types and symbols as different species of the emblem, and observes” The type is that species of the emblem by which one object is made to represent another mystically: p 334 Fifth printing of the 1st Edition, Zondervan Publication.

Furthermore Terry goes on to spell out 3 qualifications that are “essential to make one person or event the type of another.

1, There must be some notable point of resemblance or analogy between the two…..
2, There must be evidence that the type was designed and appointed by God to represent the thing typified……
3, The type must prefigure something in the future….

Terry’s work, btw, was the standard for Biblical Hermeneutics for years and as far as I know isn’t disputed which means either your claim of “typological sense” for the specific passage in 1 Cor 15 is the “prefigure” for something that will culminate in the future or you don’t understand what “typology” means. However, if you are arguing that AD70 was a “type” of a future judgment yet to occur, then I’ve misunderstood you an apologize, although I’m not sure why you would be using the term “futurist” in a comparative term.

I’m not sure what you think 40 years between the Exodus and Israel’s entry into the promised land has to do with any of this, the Exodus was about the redemption from bondage, the Apostle Paul tells the Romans in the 1st Century well before AD70 that they had been freed from the bondage of sin shooting a hole in your 40 year theory. Finally, your observation regarding the meaning of “forever”, as far as I know Hebrew’s didn’t have a concept of time as Westerners do, forever to the Jew could very well have merely meant a long, long time, which btw would fit with 1 Cor 15 given Paul doesn't set a short-term time horizon, just that all enemies will be defeated when the reign culimates.

So I guess this all leaves us back to where we were when we 1st asked you the question regarding 1 Cor 15

then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Paul unequivocally utilizes the “time” indicators that the end will come when “every” rule and “every” authority and "every" power is put down. Based on your methodology assuming you aren’t arguing that AD70 isn’t just a “type” of what will occur, in which case why are we having this discussion to begin with, if you acknowledge there is still a future judgment you are in agreement with 100% of Christianity on the text, but assuming you aren't, how to do reconcile this clear “time” indicator with what transpired in a sleepy corner of the Roman Empire in the fall of AD70.

Conquest

[Conquest]

Perhaps if you looked into the CONTEXT of all those OT passages you quoted you would find that the "Day of the Lord" WAS near to them. Here let me do the first one:

Isaiah 13:6 - Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. [the passage you quoted]

Please note to whom the prophesied day of the Lord was to come upon:

Isaiah 13:1- The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

Isaiah 13 is about the destruction of Babylon by the Medes and Persians. Here is proof:

Isaiah 13:17 - Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

This is a past fulfilled prophecy. There are 24 Day of the Lord's mentioned in the OT Scriptures. The vast majority have been fulfilled and are past events. It would seem that you take the "Day of the Lord" as representing only one event in history. Isaiah 13 proves that view as completely false. Nor is it a type of the second coming (although the characteristics of the "Day of the Lord" are similar in nature). Why? Because the Medes would have to represent the Lord. And when the Medes would be destroyed, there goes the type...

I guess that then means the term "Day of the Lord" doesn't necessitate an "appearing" of God as in Advent. Why then do you think the 2nd Advent or 2nd Coming was coterminous with the "Day of the Lord". On 2nd thought, don't answer that you answer to a different lord.

Conquest

[psychohmike]

So I guess this all leaves us back to where we were when we 1st asked you the question regarding 1 Cor 15

then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Paul unequivocally utilizes the “time” indicators that the end will come when “every” rule and “every” authority and "every" power is put down. Based on your methodology assuming you aren’t arguing that AD70 isn’t just a “type” of what will occur, in which case why are we having this discussion to begin with, if you acknowledge there is still a future judgment you are in agreement with 100% of Christianity on the text, but assuming you aren't, how to do reconcile this clear “time” indicator with what transpired in a sleepy corner of the Roman Empire in the fall of AD70.

Conquest

Clearly you are convinced of your own opinion. I'm going to have to leave this conversation to my friends that have more time than I. Good luck...

[psychohmike]

I guess that then means the term "Day of the Lord" doesn't necessitate an "appearing" of God as in Advent. Why then do you think the 2nd Advent or 2nd Coming was coterminous with the "Day of the Lord". On 2nd thought, don't answer that you answer to a different lord.

Conquest

John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

And at least we know who's disciple you're not. 8)

[Conquest]

Clearly you are convinced of your own opinion. I'm going to have to leave this conversation to my friends that have more time than I. Good luck...

Indeed, based on the clear language the Apostle Paul used I’m unaware of any legitimate biblical scholar who suggests AD70 was the fulfillment of that prophecy. Thanks for the admonition, but what would be really interesting is if you had the "opinion" of any Christian scholar that would back up your opinion. Gary DeMar, ab author cited often by Full Preterists states regarding the passage in 1 Cor 15,

Christ does not settle for a part-time or restricted reign as King. He demands obedience in all things from us, and His aim is to subdue all resistance – of any nature (internal or external) – to His rule. Paul teaches, “He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet,” concluding with death itself at the general resurrection (1 Cor 15:25-26) The Reduction of Christianity, pg 356.

Furthermore DeMar points out,

After all, nearly every interpreter of 1 Corinthians 15 agrees that it refers to the final resurrection, the end of history, the time of Christ’s Second Coming. Ibid, pg 150.

I guess the question has now evolved from yesterday’s of how do you reconcile and chose to ignore the clear time indicators of this very explicit passage to now how is it your opinion differs with what DeMar claims is the universal Christian view of the passage?

Something tells me your friends like you won’t be able to offer up a reasoned argument.

Conquest

[Conquest]

John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

And at least we know who's disciple you're not. 8)

Right, the Lord I follow is both fully God and fully man.

Conquest

[psychohmike]

John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

And at least we know who's disciple you're not. 8)

Right, the Lord I follow is both fully God and fully man.

Conquest

Sail on sailor...Till you find what it is you're looking for. Trim your sails and turn your ship around...to the Lord. 8)

[Conquest]

Sail on sailor...Till you find what it is you're looking for. Trim your sails and turn your ship around...to the Lord. 8)

2 John 1:8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ,(That would be that He is both fully God and fully man) does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

I’ve inserted the important concept for you. Concepts matter, words matter, if you deny the who and what of Jesus Christ you deny Him. Are you a fellow worker of wicked?

Conquest

[Sean]

Much of evangelical Christianity has missed the second coming on the same, identical basis - looking for physical, material fulfillments. Because they have a false "NATURE" of His "appearing again the second time," they must explain away or ignore EVERY SINGLE TIME STATEMENT that states very clearly the obvious imminence of the second "coming" to that first century generation.

Nobody that I know of denies the second coming theme in the following 2 Thessalonians passage. What I want to know is how that first century Thessalonian church could be released from their suffering and trials (the persecuting Pharisees and unbelieving Jews - 1 Thess 2:14-16) as a promise by the INSPIRED PAUL (cannot lie):

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 - Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ[/color]:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Them = unbelieving Jews
You = 1st century Thessalonian church (believers)
Us = Paul, Timothy, Silvanus and the Thessalonians believers. All believers would experience this event, but Paul is writing specifically to the Thessalonian church.

I'm wondering what conclusion you would come to applying this type of exegesis to 2 Samuel 7?

2 Samuel 7:12 "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.
2Sa 7:15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you.
2Sa 7:16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever."

And of it's fulfillment in 1 Kings 8?

1Ki 8:17 Now it was in the heart of my father David to build a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel.
1Ki 8:18 But the LORD said to my father David, 'Whereas it was in your heart to build a temple for My name, you did well that it was in your heart.
1Ki 8:19 Nevertheless you shall not build the temple, but your son who will come from your body, he shall build the temple for My name.'
1Ki 8:20 So the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke; and I have filled the position of my father David, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised; and I have built a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel.
1Ki 8:21 And there I have made a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD which He made with our fathers, when He brought them out of the land of Egypt."
1Ki 8:22 Then Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the assembly of Israel, and spread out his hands toward heaven;
1Ki 8:23 and he said: "LORD God of Israel, there is no God in heaven above or on earth below like You, who keep Your covenant and mercy with Your servants who walk before You with all their hearts.
1Ki 8:24 You have kept what You promised Your servant David my father; You have both spoken with Your mouth and fulfilled it with Your hand, as it is this day.


So who was the audience of 2 Sam 7? Who was suppose to fulfill this? Was it fulfilled?

Is it possible that there can be more than one type of fulfillment? Such as Acts 2:29-31 in this case? Could 2 Thes 1 be blended as 2 Samuel 7 is?
This "rest" is also mentioned in Hebrews 3 & 4. It doesn't seem to be exclusively about a second coming event. I could perhaps be about the relief that was to come to those who were being persecuted by the Jews. An event brought about directly by Jesus judgment of the Jews.

Also, what kind of man is Jesus?
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Also, if flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, and "flesh and blood" mean literal physical human beings, then what is to come of Enoch? Why is he considered faithful, and why did God "take" him if he can never enter the kingdom of God (since he never died)?