Question about the 2nd Coming as described in Rev 20

[Guest]

sab, Sean said it well and your points are also noted. I assume you believe in a future 1000 year period when Christ rules with a rod of iron but at the same time is called a 1000 years of peace. Am I right? And for those who believe this is true then they too must wrestle with the idea that there truly is no peace in the hearts of men who are ruled by force rather than by choice.

Those who hold to this view also say that there will be people born during this time of "peace" and that they are held from rebellion because of the force imposed obiedience, imposed upon them by a Christ with a rod of iron. They assume that their hearts desire is not to serve God through Christ but would rather rebell but cannot because of the imposed obiedience upon them. It is not until the end of the thousand years that Satan is released that he, in some more powerful way then forced obiedience by the Creator of the universe, is able to deceive a people whos hearts are already bent against Christ but simply were not able to act upon that rebellion in their hearts. Therefore Satan becomes their champion for their hearts desire and God is forced to bring fire down upon the whole lot and destroy their wicked ways which were up to that time only a rebellion of the heart and not in action. Do I have that right?

[Guest]

The book of Revelation is an apocalyptic writing. This means it's full of symbolic language and figures of speech. Do you believe that when Satan is bound that he will actually have a chain on him and he be cast into a literal pit that does not have a bottom? Similarly, do you believe that Jesus is a literal lamb with seven eyes and seven horns that was slain?

Now Sean, you seem to be making the "quantum leap" from the fact that those who take some of Revelation literally (the parts which state what will happen) must, to be consistent take ALL of it literally (including the parts that are obviously symbolic).

I consider this to be unfair play.

Keep posting, Sab. You're doing well. Stand firm. Withstand the onslaught.

[Guest]

sab, Sean said it well and your points are also noted. I assume you believe in a future 1000 year period when Christ rules with a rod of iron but at the same time is called a 1000 years of peace. Am I right? And for those who believe this is true then they too must wrestle with the idea that there truly is no peace in the hearts of men who are ruled by force rather than by choice.

Those who hold to this view also say that there will be people born during this time of "peace" and that they are held from rebellion because of the force imposed obiedience, imposed upon them by a Christ with a rod of iron... Do I have that right?

Psalm 2:9 says Christ is going to break the nations with an iron rod. If we look at Obadiah 15 "The day is near when I, the Lord, will judge the godless nations! As you have done to Israel, so it will be done to you. All your evil deeds will fall back on your own heads. 16 Just as you swallowed up my people on my holy mountain, so you and the surrounding nations will swallow the punishment I pour out on you. Yes, you nations will drink and stagger and disappear from history, as though you had never even existed. 17 "But Jerusalem will become a refuge for those who escape; it will be a holy place. And the people of Israel will come back to reclaim their inheritance. 18 At that time Israel will be a raging fire, and Edom, a field of dry stubble. The fire will roar across the field, devouring everything and leaving no survivors in Edom. I, the Lord, have spoken! 19 "Then my people living in the Negev will occupy the mountains of Edom. Those living in the foothills of Judah will possess the Philistine plains and take over the fields of Ephraim and Samaria. And the people of Benjamin will occupy the land of Gilead. 20 The exiles of Israel will return to their land and occupy the Phoenician coast as far north as Zarephath. The captives from Jerusalem exiled in the north will return to their homeland and resettle the villages of the Negev. 21 Deliverers will go up to Mount Zion in Jerusalem to rule over the mountains of Edom. And the Lord himself will be king!"NLT

This seems to be a clear description of the judgement of the nations. Sheep and goats - there's another thread going about that at the moment - (how they treat the Lord's brethren - ie the Jews) So the present US policy of blessing Israel is pretty important.

I believe you are making a fundamental error here of interpreting Hebrew idioms literally into English. To rule with an iron rod doesn't always have the heavy overtones that the English implies. Yes, the nations are going to be smashed. This is also implied by Daniel 2:44. But it does not necessitate the total annhilation of every single person on earth.

The expression is also used here:
Rev 2:24
"Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 "But hold fast what you have till I come.
26 "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations--27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'-- as I also have received from My Father;

Nations will cease as nations - ie no more nationalism, no more passports, visas or earthly rulers. Civilization as we know it will cease. If all the inhabitants of the earth are all dead which nations are the overcomers going to rule? Or if you say that has already happened, when? I think it was Augustine who first thought we must be in the millenium because the Roman Emperor had adopted Christianity as the state religion. But I am of the opinion that that move ushered in the age of Apostasy and I'd hardly call the age of the apostate church the kingdom of God on Earth.

I was into eastern religion before I was saved. Seeing the mess humans had made of the planet filled me with despair. I longed for Christ's coming to put an end to all this misery, though I was rather nervous about where I stood. When I got saved I understood Christ was in control and Satan's days were numbered. He has lost - but he is still active in the time he has left - which isn't long.

I would have thought that those who say we are living in the millenium now were nutty (well, I still do) - THIS is the kingdom of God on earth??? Are you for real? So The Holocaust, Pol Pot, Idi Amin the Stalin years, the violence in South America, the attempted genocide of the American Indians, the brutal oppression of slaves of every ilk, are all happening in Christ's peaceable kingdom - where the lion is lying down beside the lamb??? I don't think so.

About 'forced obedience'. I understand the millenium to be almost a return to Eden. All people will know is Christ's good government. Satan will be out of the picture until he is loosed for a little season. Adam and Eve knew God but were deceived into sin. These people will never have had to 'resist the devil', nor will they have ever had to deal with giving place to the devil, nor will they have had to stand against the wiles of the devil, nor fallen into the reproach and snare of the devil, nor will the devil have had the opportunity to roar around to destroy them, nor will their hearts be darkened by the hate-filled lies that the devil is spreading about Israel or Christ. There will be no false religion, no idols, no false prophets. But then satan will deceive them. He will possibly use an argument like the one you put forth - "This King forces you to obey him - let's take over, bring back the 'good old days'." But it will be a lie - people will never have had it so good.

[Guest]

sab, Is it that you do not believe that Obadiah 15 was not fulfilled before the coming of Christ?

This seems to be a clear description of the judgement of the nations. Sheep and goats - there's another thread going about that at the moment - (how they treat the Lord's brethren - ie the Jews) So the present US policy of blessing Israel is pretty important.

In your opinion all those professing to be Jews today are the Lord's brethren?

I believe you are making a fundamental error here of interpreting Hebrew idioms literally into English. To rule with an iron rod doesn't always have the heavy overtones that the English implies. Yes, the nations are going to be smashed. This is also implied by Daniel 2:44. But it does not necessitate the total annhilation of every single person on earth.

Therefore will you please answer my question as to what your opinion is on what goes on during the millennial reign? And while you are at it will you provide Scripture to support your understanding?

I would have thought that those who say we are living in the millenium now were nutty (well, I still do) - THIS is the kingdom of God on earth??? Are you for real? So The Holocaust, Pol Pot, Idi Amin the Stalin years, the violence in South America, the attempted genocide of the American Indians, the brutal oppression of slaves of every ilk, are all happening in Christ's peaceable kingdom - where the lion is lying down beside the lamb??? I don't think so.

Obviously you still have not made any attempt to understand the realized millennial view even though it has been explained.

About 'forced obedience'. I understand the millenium to be almost a return to Eden. All people will know is Christ's good government. Satan will be out of the picture until he is loosed for a little season. Adam and Eve knew God but were deceived into sin. These people will never have had to 'resist the devil', nor will they have ever had to deal with giving place to the devil, nor will they have had to stand against the wiles of the devil, nor fallen into the reproach and snare of the devil, nor will the devil have had the opportunity to roar around to destroy them, nor will their hearts be darkened by the hate-filled lies that the devil is spreading about Israel or Christ. There will be no false religion, no idols, no false prophets. But then satan will deceive them. He will possibly use an argument like the one you put forth - "This King forces you to obey him - let's take over, bring back the 'good old days'." But it will be a lie - people will never have had it so good.

this is a product of imposing your view upon Scripture. There is no Scripture that spells this out as you have related it. If I am wrong then please provide your Scriptural proof so that we can discuss it.

It is not my intention to "defend" my position against your position (though some of this will no doubt be inevitable). My purpose here is to present you with the Biblical reasons why I hold the position that I do, and to show where I am coming from as an "amillennialist."

Paul teaches that Christ's second coming will signal the end, not the beginning, of His reign as Messiah. Let's be realistic. Jesus stated that He now possesses "all power" in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18 ). I challenge you to consider this important statement carefully. What can be added to "all"? Does our Lord have "all power" now, or doesn't He?

[Guest]

The book of Revelation is an apocalyptic writing. This means it's full of symbolic language and figures of speech. Do you believe that when Satan is bound that he will actually have a chain on him and he be cast into a literal pit that does not have a bottom? Similarly, do you believe that Jesus is a literal lamb with seven eyes and seven horns that was slain?

Now Sean, you seem to be making the "quantum leap" from the fact that those who take some of Revelation literally (the parts which state what will happen) must, to be consistent take ALL of it literally (including the parts that are obviously symbolic).

I consider this to be unfair play.

Where did I state it all had to be taken one way? My point (as stated in the above quote) is about the "binding" of Satan. I used one other reference from Revelation about Jesus being a lamb. I also mentioned the type of writing the book is. I'm not sure how making factual points about the text is "unfair".

Keep posting, Sab. You're doing well. Stand firm. Withstand the onslaught.

Onslaught? If that's what this seems like then maybe I should stop posting. In all honesty, if sab wants to understand the Amil position better he should read up on it (from those who hold the view) or listen to Steve's lectures on the subject. It's difficult to discuss so many broad points at one time with someone unfamiliar with the subject matter (of the Amil position). I've learned much from others on many different forums by doing what sab is doing. Sab, there is an easier way. Learn about the Amil position and then it's easier to see both the strengths and weaknesses of it. That makes it easier to discuss.

Sab, you seem to be dispensational. Meaning, you see the church and Israel as separate peoples of God. This is a bit different than the millennial question but for some people these issues are intertwined. I don't hold the dispensational view. Jesus and the apostles taught that there are one people of God, the church. The church consists of the remnant of Israel with Gentiles grafted in (Rom 11). The only way to be considered one of God's children is to be under the Jewish Messiah Jesus. This means that Jews who are not born again are not considered Jews in God's sight (Romans 2:28 9:6, Revelation 2:9, 3:9). So your comment about giving the kingdom back to Israel in 1948 makes no biblical sense, because unbelieving Jews are not true sons of Abraham. We are all sons of Abraham by faith, not by physical birth.

This may help you understand the position I (and Allyn) are coming from. Isaiah 2, 11, 2Samuel 7, etc are about the church age. Many times the NT apostles quote the OT and apply those passages which appear to be about earthly Jerusalem and apply them to the church age. Jesus is called the stone laid in Zion, yet Jesus is called the foundation of the Church, not physical Israel. Paul speaks of the Jerusalem above and the Jerusalem on earth, and states they both have completely different destinies. The book of Hebrews says: Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven.
The church, called the bride of Christ is mentioned in Revelation 21 as the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven with 12 foundations who's names where the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb. Once you understand that the church is the true Israel of God, some of the other issues become easier to grasp (although maybe not the millennial question )

I would have thought that those who say we are living in the millenium now were nutty (well, I still do) - THIS is the kingdom of God on earth??? Are you for real? So The Holocaust, Pol Pot, Idi Amin the Stalin years, the violence in South America, the attempted genocide of the American Indians, the brutal oppression of slaves of every ilk, are all happening in Christ's peaceable kingdom - where the lion is lying down beside the lamb??? I don't think so.

While I could be wrong, I would guess that your view of the millennium has come from dispensational bible teachers, and not from the bible itself. Can you show me in Revelation 20 where things are going to be perfect? I know, I know, there's all those old testament passages. I think if you cross reference the language used in the OT with itself and the NT, you will find different meanings than what modern end times teachers claim. Or maybe not.

Would you at least be willing to listen to this: Symbols of Nations
It's from Steve Gregg's Topical Teaching on Isaiah

Hope that helps.

[Guest]

Sean,

The picture I posted...I got off of google images. Out of curiosity I just googled the home site: it's Jehovah's Witnesses but...I'm not! Those folks make some good pictures & paintings tho, huh?

Wait a minute.
Is that a picture of Jesus or Jehovah?
I thought it was supposed to be Jesus...so it is to me!

Anyways...back on topic now,
Rick

[Guest]

Where did I state it all had to be taken one way? My point (as stated in the above quote) is about the "binding" of Satan. I used one other reference from Revelation about Jesus being a lamb. I also mentioned the type of writing the book is. I'm not sure how making factual points about the text is "unfair".

Your implication, as I understood you, Sean, is that if a person understands the binding of Satan to occur after a literal millenium, then to be consistent, he should believe that Satan bound with a literal chain and cast into a literal pit without a bottom, and Jesus is a literal lamb with seven eyes and seven horns.

It wasn't your making factual points about the text that was unfair, but rather the assumption that those who understand the millenium to be an actual period of time of approximately 1000 years, must, in order to be consistent, believe in the ridiculous literalities as described above.

[Guest]

I believe its best to respond with your view on this topic then to sidetrack with your opposition to the way someone expresses their view.

[Guest]

That would indeed be best, Allyn! ---- if everyone expressed his view without insulting the intelligence (even unwittingly) of those who disagree with him.

[Guest]

So Sean, Allyn and Ric...

Are you saying Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour on the end of a long leash? And you say I add my own interpretation to the scriptures.