The gap in the 70 weeks is not absurd

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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Sat May 13, 2006 9:57 am

Thank you Crusader.

I'll be sure and check that [website] out. These Steve Gregg cronies would do good to check it out as well. I actually got tangled up in this garbage until I started researching the dispensational understanding of it and began to realizt that the Steve Gregg Mavericks on here are just wanting to be different and cannot accept that their position is non-sense. Gregg is smooth with his explanations but they are really just his way of trying to stand out.
I don't usually reply to tirades against people. Nor am I doing so in this case. But for the sake of others, I just want to point out that it is ludicrous to assume that this exchange is limited to disagreement between dispensationalists and preterists, and that eveyone who disagrees with the foolish and Anti-Christian stance of dispensationalists must be "Steve Gregg cronies" and "Steve Gregg Mavericks".

I, who held to dispensationalism in my late teens and early twenties, rejected this falsity many decades ago --- long before I ever heard of Steve Gregg or this forum.

Nor am I a preterist with reference to Matthew 24 (at least not with reference to any of it except the destruction of the temple). I am a historic pre-millenialist. So there are positions other than preterism or even a-millenialism which have seen the falsity of dispensationalism.

I call the dispensationalist position "Anti-Christian" in both senses of the Greek preposition "anti". The position is both against Christianity, and it replaces Christianity. I'm not talking about the mere invention of the pre-trib rapture view, or the proposal of seven imaginary dispensations. One could hold to these, and still be a disciple of Christ.

I am speaking of the evil doctrines which often accompany dispensationalism, at least in its most extreme form. For example, C.I. Scofield in his notes on Matthew 5, in his Scofield Bible, states the following concerning "the sermon on the mount":

"... the Sermon on the Mount in its primary application gives neither the privelege nor the duty of the Church." We in the church not only do not have the duty to literally obey Christ's words as He gave them in Matthew 5, 6, and 7, but we do not even have the privilege of doing so.
How contrary to the teaching of the Lord Jesus!

At the conclusion of "the sermon on the mount", Jesus gave this warning:

"Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it."
Matthew 7:21-27 RSV


What a warning our Lord gives in these words! Clearly there will be many when Christ comes, who will call Him "Lord", and will have even done miracles in His name, but who will be rejected because they have not done the Father's will. Obviously, Jesus, in this passage, also linked obedience to His words with those who "do the will of His Father."

And, perhaps even more powerful in indicating the supreme importance of literally carrying out His commandments, is the fact the He included them in His last commandment to spread the gospel throughout the world. Obedience to Christ is part of "the Great Commission"!

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.
Matthew 28:19,20 RSV


So we need to do more than "get them to accept Christ as their personal Saviour". We need to make disciples, those who have died to self, and who live their lives in submission to Christ. We need to baptize them.
And we need to teach them to literally obey the commandments of Christ (most of which are found in Matthew 5, 6, and 7).

But for such as C. I. Scofield (and I think Arno C. Gabelein also in his "Our Hope" magazines), obeying the commandments of Christ are "neither the duty nor the privilege of the Church." If this is not the spirit of Antichrist, what is?

The ultra-dispensationalists go even further. No part of the gospels, nor any of the letters of Peter, James, etc. apply to the Christian, because they were not addressed to Christians, but to the Jews. Even many of Paul's letters are supposed to be in this category.

So the only instruction we, as Christians, have in the Bible, are certain letters of Paul which were addressed to the Church. Ultra-dispensationalists have a name for the procedure of recognizing which writings are for the Church, and which for the Jews. This procedure is called "rightly dividing the word of truth." Practically, there doesn't seem to be any difference between this procedure, and that of stating that the parts of the New Testament which we don't want to follow, are not "inspired."
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Post by _JD » Sat May 13, 2006 10:39 am

Aaron,

Read Sean's post carefully. There, you will discover why I ask you if you think Ezekiel 40-48, with a temple and sacrifices is yet future.

Please respond.

In truth, you are stuck at this point. If you care to back up a bit, and restate your claims, fine. Otherwise, just answer my question, please.

Oh, and my path away from dispensationalism, which I taught for years in the greenhouse of pre-millennialism where Calvary Chapels dominate the landscape, began years before hearing of Steve Gregg.

Sincerely,
Steve Gregg Maverick
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Post by _AARONDISNEY » Sat May 13, 2006 12:47 pm

Paidion,
I was not familiar with the teaching that the sermon on the mount and the epistles are not for us. Not that you would admit this or anything but not all dispensationalists are anti-nomian. That must be some fringe dispensational teaching. That is not in any wise the truth. But there are in fact different ways in which God interacted with men. Some see 7 some see more some see less. I totally agree with the fact that there have been and will be differing dispensations.

JD,
I am not real familiar with the scripture you are talking about. I will look into it and get back to you. I know there is conroversy over that section but just to be honest I hadn't gotten that far yet :oops:

mattrose,
thanks for telling me your age, junior! Talk to ya later little buddy :wink: .
I'm just messin with ya!
Dude, age has absolutely zero to do with anything. What you were doing and what I just did are ways to take hidden jabs at someone with absolutely no content whatsoever.

Just to switch gears slightly here why do you suppose that there are going to be those of us ruling on the earth, when there will be (as you all suppose) no millenium?
Ps 47:4-HE SHALL CHOOSE OUR INHERITANCE FOR US.
The saints become KINGS AND PRIESTS and reign on the earth-Rev 5:10. They reign with Jesus A THOUSAND YEARS-Rev 20:6.
1 Cor 6:2-THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD.
Isa 1:26-Jesus WILL RESTORE THY JUDGES AS AT THE FIRST, AND THY COUNSELLORS AS AT THE BEGINNING.
The Scriptures indicate that the saints will be rulers over thousands, or hundreds, or fifties, or tens. They may be rulers over cities.
Lk 19:17,19-Some shall HAVE…AUTHORITY OVER TEN CITIES…or OVER FIVE CITIES.
Rev 2:26-Some will be given POWER OVER THE NATIONS.
Mt 25:21,23-And some will be a RULER OVER MANY THINGS.
What do you all suppose he is talking about. THe present state of believers? If so, I was just wondering - which cities are you guys rulers over?
Jesus hasn't given me a city to rule over yet :cry:
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Post by _AARONDISNEY » Sat May 13, 2006 1:55 pm

Also, on Matt 24
why is it that immediately after the tribulation of those days (70 AD according to you guys) that the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the clouds?

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

I know the general preterist stuff of that this is Him actually ascending to Heaven but didn't he do that 37 years prior to this? Hmmmmm, that doesn't add up does it. But also all the tribes of the land (of Israel) shall mourn because of Him, that's also (according to you) in 70 AD. So did Jesus not actually ascend to Heaven until 70 AD??? Or is it that His second coming already occurred in 70 AD?
Or is it the sensible conclusion that this is speaking of a future tribulation period, after which we shall see the Son of Man in Heaven as a sign?

These are the kinds of things that made me abandon partial preterism, not so much the popularity of dispensationalism..
However the popularity of it made me think that there must be something to it and Praise God I was right. Although most on here do not follow dispensational truth, I do see your sincerity and I know that many of you have come to the conclusions you have through serious consideration of the scriptures. But please take into consideration also that the objections to this teaching are very strong, and at least see that this preterist view is suspect.

Your brother
Aaron
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Post by _mattrose » Sat May 13, 2006 3:22 pm

First, I agree actual age has very little to do with anything. That was kind of my point!

Second, in regards to Matthew 24:30, the verse answers your question for you. In AD70 it became obvious to those who had called for Christ's death that they had been wrong. It became clear that Jesus truly had come back to life and ascended to the right side of the Father.

It doesn't come close to saying the ascension didn't happen till AD70, it simply says AD70 was the 'sign' that the ascension to the Father truly had occured.

Third, you are still a partial preterist whether you like it or not (unless you equate ALL prophecies to the end of the world scenario). It's just a matter of how many of the Bible's prophecies were made for a single generation at the end of time.

Fourth, I'm always open to consider other viewpoints. That is my style of learning and my style of teaching. The reason I left the dispensational camp was because dispensational teachers often pretend their view is the only view when in reality there view is only a recently popular view.
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Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'

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Post by _AARONDISNEY » Sat May 13, 2006 3:32 pm

So, Matt, do you mean that in 70AD the national Israelites realized that Jesus was the Messiah and all the tribes of Israel mourned for what they had done?
I don't think that is what happened. Not that I am aware of anyhow. It seems to me that the Jews have still not mouned for their true Messiah whom they have slain.

Can you help me understand how this is logical to you a little better, because I still don't get what you mean.
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Post by _mattrose » Sat May 13, 2006 3:38 pm

When the Roman Armies were coming, the Jews in Jerusalem believed God would protect them despite Jesus' predictions that the city would be destroyed in their generation. They expected divine protection. They didn't get it.

As the Romans were destroying the temple and killing their families, I'm sure they were mourning their decision to reject the long awaited Messiah

Meanwhile, the disciples of Christ had accepted Jesus' warning, had fled the city, and were indeed protected.
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Post by _AARONDISNEY » Sat May 13, 2006 3:51 pm

Okay Matt, but let's look again at the order of events here

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)


In verse 29 I understand you to think of this as a metaphor for the nation of Israel being decimated and no longer standing.
In verse 30 we see after that that the Jews realize (as you see it) that Jesus was the Messiah (which obviously did not cause them to turn to Him)...but in the second part of the verse they see Him coming in the clouds of Heaven ...which is what I understand you to believe He is coming in judgement against their nation, but did he not already have that over with and done in verse 29.
Next in v 31 we see that he gathers together His elect with the sound of a trumpet...In the 2 great rapture passages (or as you would have it 2nd coming passages) His gathering His elect is accompanied with a trumpet. Is there a great leap placed here between 70 and ????(when he returns) or do you imagine v 31 to mean that He calls all His people into the body of Christ thoughout the Church period? Even if there is mention of the trumpet and the gathering of His people?

I am very new to studying dispensational teaching in any thourough way let alone Preterism. But it seems obvious to me that this cannot be about 70AD. And through prayer I have come to the conclusion that the Spirit leading me into all truth has led me away from preterism. Not saying every aspect of dispensationalism has it down pat but I feel as though I am heading the right direction anyhow.

Hope that wasn't too many questions at once but there are so many trouble areas to preterism that I see, I just want to know if you all can answer each of them without some vague spiritualization of every aspect of it.

Thank you
Aaron
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Post by _JD » Sat May 13, 2006 4:23 pm

Aaron,

That's fair. As Sean pointed out, dispensationalists believe there will be sacrifices in the millennium. This has many problems, but where you are concerned, you cannot say at one point that the antichrist will end sacrifices, but then, in the millennium, there will be sacrifices. Unless you are picking and choosing when to take the word "cease" literally.

That, or you believe the antichrist has powers that Jesus doesn't - ending sacrifices.

As for your other comments, if you were familiar with old testament idioms, then you would understand that Jesus is using apocalyptic language to describe impending judgment on Israel. This has been chronicled at other threads, and discarded by those who do not allow the Bible to interpret itself, but instead rely on worn-out cliches and absurd literalism.

Blessings in your quest to tell Christians what Jesus didn't accomplish at Calvary.
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Post by _mattrose » Sat May 13, 2006 4:23 pm

In my opinion it is a westernized mentality that thinks in a strict chronological manner. It seems to me that 1st century Jews group things more by subject matter than by chronology. Thus, I see the verses you quoted as describing different components of the same events. This is not a 'spiritualized' approach to the passage, it is (I believe) the best understanding of how Jesus hearers would have understood Him.

With dispensationalisms multitude of charts, I'll admit it is very hard for me not to think in terms of a rigid chronological chain of events.

I think the gathering of God's people in verse 31 simply refers to what Jesus said would happen. Now that Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed, all the scattered believers would be gathered 'in Christ'. A trumpet blast is a general symbol for the strart of something significant, it need not symbolize the exact same thing starting every time it is utilized.
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Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'

I agree with the second part (se7en)

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