To Die...Or Not to Die? That is the question.

Post by **_psychohmike** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:17 am

1 Corinthians 15. A significant passage regarding the resurrection. I personally because of a study of the greek in this passage see that Paul was speaking about a resurrection that was happening in there day. Because of Pauls use of present active language. Basically restoration/regeneration of Israel in Christ like in Ephesians 2. "The dead are being raised."

So here is my question...

In vs. 36 Paul says, "what you sow is not made alive unless it dies."

But then in vs.51, "We shall not all sleep/die."

Any thoughts on this?

Post by **_TK** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:39 am

do you mean any thoughts other than the traditional explanation that when Jesus returns some of us will still be alive (and therefore wont die) and will be given resurrection bodies at that time?

TK

Post by **_psychohmike** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:51 am

TK wrote:do you mean any thoughts other than the traditional explanation that when Jesus returns some of us will still be alive (and therefore wont die) and will be given resurrection bodies at that time?

TK

Not exactly...Paul says we can't be made alive unless we die...But Paul said, "we shall not all die."

So...If one must die to be made alive...how can one be made alive if he does not die?

Pmike

Post by **_TK** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:50 pm

mike--

when a caterpillar changes into a butterfly, is the caterpillar "dead" when the transformation is complete? in a sense, yes, because the caterpillar no longer exists.

this might be an analogy to explain paul's comment in vs. 36.

TK

Post by **_psychohmike** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:36 pm

TK wrote:mike--

when a caterpillar changes into a butterfly, is the caterpillar "dead" when the transformation is complete? in a sense, yes, because the caterpillar no longer exists.

this might be an analogy to explain paul's comment in vs. 36.

TK

Thanks, but I think you are mixing your metaphors. Death and resurrection is different from metamorphasis. And that is part of the point that I am trying to make. In that Paul was not talking about physical/literal/natural death being overcome but regeneration and restoration. Hense Paul's citation of Isaiah 25 and Hosea 13 in wrapping up his discourse.

Post by **_JC** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:37 pm

psychohmike, consider the question that Paul is attempting to answer in chapter 15. Verse 35 "But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?"

This is the context of the passages that you are referring to. I can't see how he'd be referring to anything but a physical ressurection.

Post by **_psychohmike** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:52 pm

JC wrote:psychohmike, consider the question that Paul is attempting to answer in chapter 15. Verse 35 "But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?"

This is the context of the passages that you are referring to. I can't see how he'd be referring to anything but a physical ressurection.

Hi JC...I think this is one place that the greek text clarifies things a little. If I understand it properly, what is being said here is, "the seed that is in the ground...if it does not die, it can't be made alive."

Now if this were to be put in plain terms it would sound like this, "If the body you just burried(that is in the ground) does not die, it can't come back to life."

When it comes to dead people...we don't bury them until after they die. We don't put them in the ground and then wait for them to die. Unless we are murdering someone.

Old body--->New body--->Old covenant--->New covenant
Old covenant-->Death New covenant-->Life

Does this make sense?

Post by **_Ely** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:11 pm

Jues to add to JC's observation of the apparent plain meaning of the text:

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Note, he did not say "we shall all be made alive." No, he said "we shall all be changed." On the contrary, we shall not all be "made alive." Only the dead will be made alive at which point they will be changed. Those who are alive will simply be changed.

Post by **_TK** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:35 pm

thanks ely-- that was my point about the caterpillar/butterfly. we who are alive will be transformed into our resurrection body w/o actually dying.

TK

Post by **_Ely** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:32 pm

TK wrote:thanks ely-- that was my point about the caterpillar/butterfly. we who are alive will be transformed into our resurrection body w/o actually dying.

TK

Ah, so it was. Good analogy!