A Couple of Questions for Preterists

[TK]

Sorry, but I have to ask questions about how preterists view things as think of them, so I might be asking several different questions at different times.

First Question:

From Is. 65 (which, as I understand it, is traditionally understood to be referring to the "millenium"- although i understand that preterists believe we are currently IN the "millenium")

New Heavens and a New Earth

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.

How does a preterist explain this passage as being fulfilled NOW, when the bolded sections are clearly not true (literally)today.

Question 2 (more general):
The traditional view is that at the end of (whatever) there will literally be a new heavens and earth created- i.e this cosmos will be re-made into something better, and we will have glorified bodies to live in it.

If that is not true, does a preterist simply believe that human life will continue on the earth until the sun burns out, or there is some other major catastophre (asteroid?) or some other cause for extinction of the human race? In other words, is what we have now what we can expect (in essence) 10,000 years from now, assuming that humans (and christians) are still around?

Thanks,

TK

[mikew]

Sorry, but I have to ask questions about how preterists view things as think of them, so I might be asking several different questions at different times.

I'm not sure if I qualify on this. were you asking about full prets still? or normal preterists? Though, depending which passages and ideas are considered to be prophecies within the scope of fulfillment, I could be classified into either one of those categories. I still look forward to the resurrection of the Last Day.

First Question:

From Is. 65 (which, as I understand it, is traditionally understood to be referring to the "millenium"- although i understand that preterists believe we are currently IN the "millenium")


How does a preterist explain this passage as being fulfilled NOW, when the bolded sections are clearly not true (literally)today.

Anyhow, I wanted to note that Gregg's topical lecture on Isaiah may have been the influencing factor on my view here. Maybe somewhere else.
I am maybe not settled on a simple symbolic fulfillment especially due to the "living to 100 years" since that phrase seems more as a specific prophecy.

But what I have tended to see about passages that talk about a long string of blessings and curses is that these passages seem to be fulfilled in a general manner. The general manner is that there was either an enjoyment blessings (even if stored in the heavenlies) or a receipt of curses (if left in the wrath of God). The idea of the prophecies on curses is that there was a package deal -- the sort that Adam exposed man to, even if each man doesn't encounter every curse.

The wolf and lamb feeding together was described just as a change of nature -- maybe describing the change of nature of people as seen within the promise of God-- when we are saved.

Question 2 (more general):
The traditional view is that at the end of (whatever) there will literally be a new heavens and earth created- i.e this cosmos will be re-made into something better, and we will have glorified bodies to live in it.

If that is not true, does a preterist simply believe that human life will continue on the earth until the sun burns out, or there is some other major catastophre (asteroid?) or some other cause for extinction of the human race? In other words, is what we have now what we can expect (in essence) 10,000 years from now, assuming that humans (and christians) are still around?

I think that I have almost always, as a Christian, tended to think that the world (the globe, the earth) would be preserved.
It seemed by some verses that all creation was subjected to futility until the fulfilling of certain events

Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Now I won't boldly say that this verse was or wasn't fulfilled. But my general idea now is that God may simply change some constants of physics (like the speed of light or the gravitational constant) and make corruption disappear.

Of course this is expressed with the idea that the resurrection of the Last Day will result in us having physical bodies (maybe different in operation,nature and design compared to ours today).

[Allyn]

Sorry, but I have to ask questions about how preterists view things as think of them, so I might be asking several different questions at different times.

First Question:

From Is. 65 (which, as I understand it, is traditionally understood to be referring to the "millenium"- although i understand that preterists believe we are currently IN the "millenium")

No, that is not correct concerning the full-preterist position. We say that the 1000 years found its start and completion in a very short period of time from its 1st century beginning until its 70 AD completion or just shortly before, depending on the exact time of Christs return in that century.

New Heavens and a New Earth

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.

How does a preterist explain this passage as being fulfilled NOW, when the bolded sections are clearly not true (literally)today.

TK, here are a couple of links that hope you will go to. The links should answer your wolf and lamb question and your heaven and earth question:
http://www.preteristvoice.org/Fun16.html Steve Gregg is the major contributor of this commentary.
http://livebytr.proboards85.com/index.c ... page=2#286
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/heaven-earth.html

Question 2 (more general):
The traditional view is that at the end of (whatever) there will literally be a new heavens and earth created- i.e this cosmos will be re-made into something better, and we will have glorified bodies to live in it.

If that is not true, does a preterist simply believe that human life will continue on the earth until the sun burns out, or there is some other major catastophre (asteroid?) or some other cause for extinction of the human race? In other words, is what we have now what we can expect (in essence) 10,000 years from now, assuming that humans (and christians) are still around?

Thanks,

TK

I think mankind is in for an indefinite period of time on earth. Of course we will see many different changes in cultures and societies - these are common in world history - but as far as I see it we are on a world without end.

[TK]

Thanks Allyn--

but the links you noted talk about Is 11 -- not about IS 65 that says lions will eat grass.

And also- what about the part about the long life spans (a 100 year old is still a "youth.") does that have some figurative fulfillment? 80 year olds today are not considered youths, they are considered quite old.

TK

[Allyn]

Thanks Allyn--

but the links you noted talk about Is 11 -- not about IS 65 that says lions will eat grass.

And also- what about the part about the long life spans (a 100 year old is still a "youth.") does that have some figurative fulfillment? 80 year olds today are not considered youths, they are considered quite old.

TK

Its been a long day, TK

Sorry

[Mellontes]

Sorry, but I have to ask questions about how preterists view things as think of them, so I might be asking several different questions at different times.

First Question:

From Is. 65 (which, as I understand it, is traditionally understood to be referring to the "millenium"- although i understand that preterists believe we are currently IN the "millenium")

New Heavens and a New Earth

17 "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.

How does a preterist explain this passage as being fulfilled NOW, when the bolded sections are clearly not true (literally)today?

Thanks, TK

TK,
I will attempt to answer that question from the point of view of the wolf and the lamb dwelling or eating together. The same thought is expressed in Isaiah 11:6-9.

Isaiah 11:6-9 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

The next verse says when all that kind of "figurative," not literal, stuff will happen...

Isaiah 11:10 - And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

This speaks of the new covenant in Christ and is fulfilled in the first century in the ministry of Paul. See Romans 5:12...

Romans 15:12 - And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Check out the context and you will definitely have to agree with Paul that it concerns the grafting in of the Gentiles into the same inheritance of the Jew. They were at that time being saved and added to the kingdom. It was happening right there in the first century.

The same theme is reflected in Acts 15:15-17...

Acts 15:15-17 - And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

The "THIS" referred to the Gentiles being saved as recounted by the apostles: Acts 15:7-14 These were present first century happenings.
James speaks up and quotes the prophet Amos who prophesied of these 1st century events...

Amos 9:11-12 - In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

We simply must allow the NT to shed light on the OT when called upon. If we don't, a literal meaning will be assigned to the Jewish style of language. The dispensationalists are famous for this false hermeneutic. It is the same thing for the new heavens and earth...

Clearly these prophetic passages were being fulfilled in Paul's day. We, as 21st century Western scientific believers, need to start thinking like the 1st century Eastern Jewish believers and interpret Scripture as to what it meant to them and not what it means to us...

Regarding the part about the wolf and the lamb dwelling together, try to understand that it was a reference to the unclean dwelling with the unclean in ONE BODY in Christ. After all, the Bible says there is only one body. Check out Acts 10:9-16 and Acts 10:28. Romans 9:24-26. The complete body of Christ with the addition of the Gentiles creates the one body of Christ. The other figurative stuff is a little more difficult, but it is clear that all of that stuff was fulfilled "in that day" as stated by Paul in fulfillment.

Blessings, Mellontes

[TK]

thanks mellontes-

but you still havent addressed the part of lions eating grass and people dying at age 100 being considered to have died at a young age.

it sounds to me like Isaiah is describing a return to conditions that were present prior to the fall, but of course there is also the symbolic meaning you mention.

TK

[Mellontes]

thanks mellontes-

but you still havent addressed the part of lions eating grass and people dying at age 100 being considered to have died at a young age.

it sounds to me like Isaiah is describing a return to conditions that were present prior to the fall, but of course there is also the symbolic meaning you mention.

TK

TK,

What you said about it sounding like a return to conditions prior to the fall is DEAD ON!. This would be the garden. In "the day" man sinned he would die - and he did. He died spiritually. He was separated from God at THAT moment and in THAT day just as God said he would. In "that day" his eyes were opened. They were kicked out of the garden to physically demonstrate what had happened spiritually. Adam suffered spiritual death. He was not created as an immortal. If he was, why did he need food to eat (Genesis 1:29) in order to stay alive. Or was it just something to do to occupy his time? The whole premise of physical death being part of sin is based upon the idea that man was created immortal in the first place, and this is false. Either you believe Adam was created without a digestive system (because immortals don't need to eat - contradicting Genesis 1:29) or you believe we all of a sudden were physically changed getting these organs necessary for food breakdown (and teeth for chewing) at the precise moment when Adam sinned. IT IS SPIRITUAL DEATH that we are redeemed from - not physical death.

The Bible is about redemption from start to finish. Revelation is all about the return to the garden. Revelation is all about the parousia event. When were the events in Revelation to unfold? This is the question you need to answer once and for all. The timing will determine the nature; an incorrect nature has proposed the wrong timing for far too long.

Are you fully redeemed, TK? I am. The moment I got saved I was freed from the curse of sin. Was Christ capable of doing this or not? Since the death rate for humans is 100% (redeemed or unredeemed), how can I possibly believe that physical death has anything to do with sin? I am fully redeemed right now. There is nothing else I need to do to obtain redemption. Jesus Christ paid it all. If I have to wait until I die to be completely redeemed then I aint redeemed right now. It is not a progressive redemption. It is a now or not now thing!

Anyway, Isaiah 11:7 speaks of the lion eating grass (straw)...

Isaiah 11:7 - And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Even this is included in "that day" when the root of Jesse shall be established and to it the Gentiles shall seek (Isaiah 11:10). This is what Paul in Romans 15:12 quoted. The Gentiles had been grafted in. They were gonna get the same inheritance. They were believing the gospel then. The scriptures had been fulfilled.

As for the people dying at age 100 seeming to be very young, I can't help you. It's included to. I just can't explain why. My 21st century Western empirically minded culture gets in the way of understanding these ancient Jewish Eastern metaphorical cultural things...

Many theoogians have taken the same attitude as the unbelieving Pharisees. They were looking for a physical kingdom and a physical king. They refused to allow the NT (Jesus and the apostles) to shed light on the OT. Because of this, they would hold to the same wooden literalism "indicated" by the OT. Dispensationalism is the worst in doing this.

Do animals get saved? Do they need to repent? Yet sin is supposed to have affected animals. Bees grew stingers, mosquitos grew beaks, Lions developed big teeth and claws...the list goes on. But when man is redeemed from sin nothing happens to the animals...I wonder why...Everything is once again postponed because of a false understanding of sin and the redemption for it. It has nothing to do with the physical. We have completely missed what happened in the garden. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" is the epitome of what Jesus did for us. It would be the first time He was ever separated from His Father since eternity began. I can't imagine what that would have been like. It is high time that we tried!

Blessings, Mellontes

[TK]

i will have to chew on this for a while- kind of like that lion chomping on straw.

TK

[mikew]

I agree with the idea of spiritual death occurring through the fall of man. And there is a very strong correction or undoing of the effects of the fall being expressed in the New Testament.

The idea of undoing the Fall was first introduced to me upon reading Chilton's "Paradise Restored." I don't remember much of what I read in that book though.

But the theme of the restoration of Paradise was expressed in Isa 65. Then there are many other ways that this restoration is expressed. Even in the idea of being a new creature in Christ we can see Christ as the Last Adam and hence there is a new creation for believers.

Another post covered the idea of Genesis 3:15,about the serpent being crushed on the head and the seed of woman being bruised on the heal, where it was noted that Rom 16:20 showed that Satan would soon be bruised.

Also in the arrival of the kingdom of God, the political power of Satan was then beginning to be subdued and the nations being brought in subjection under Christ. This was the undoing of the unnatural (i.e. before the fall) rule of man over man. Hence, God's plan is comprehensive by encompassing both the physical and unseen (sometimes called "spiritual") realm -- but these all are just part of the same creation.

Oh. The Tree of Life also was implied in the parable of the Mustard Seed (Matt 13) and was mentioned in Revelation. The Tree of Life points appears to be representing Jesus -- as also seen in the vine analogy. But also it seems that there is a restorative effect to the physical nations in Revelation, as a benefit distinct from those who have been saved and are in the New Jerusalem.

Now it must also be seen that if Jesus came as the Last Adam, then the Tree of Life also was becoming accessible in the same era, since Adam and the Tree of Life were both in the garden than now has been restored.