Outside the gates...

Post by **_psychohmike** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:13 pm

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

I'm having a rough time with this passage. There is a clear distinction...those inside the gates or the city and those who are outside of the gates. Those who are blessed...and those who are sinners. No biggy...I could see this as the distinction of heaven and hell...Inside the pearly gates and outer darkness.

Here's where I have the problem. Verse 14 says that those who are outside the gates can enter in. This doesn't jive. Now, you could say that verse 14 is speaking about those who did the commandments of God before the time of the great white throne. But that's just not in the text.

I've always heard taught that there was a chasm fixed between the two that could not be crossed. In the afterlife that is.

Any thoughts???

Mike

Post by **__id_1364** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:58 pm

Doesnt come across that way to me Mike.
Those ouside the city are those who have rejected Christ.
The day of Grace is over at this point, and no-body outside will ever get in.

2 thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Post by **_psychohmike** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:46 pm

jeff-s wrote:Doesnt come across that way to me Mike.
Those ouside the city are those who have rejected Christ.
The day of Grace is over at this point, and no-body outside will ever get in.
2 thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those<--- FIRST CENTURY JEWS... who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to YOU who are afflicted and to US AS WELL when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those<--APOSTATE JEWS. who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Ummm...yeah. FYI...2 Thess 1 is talking about what happened in the first century. Read it carefully. Those who Paul was writing to would receive relief from the tribulation that THEY were suffering at the coming of the Lord. Not US, but them. Personal pronouns pally!!!

So what do you do with Isaiah 65 and following? That passage clearly states that there will be sinners along with saints in the new heaven and the new earth.

Post by **_Sean** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:52 pm

psychohmike wrote:
jeff-s wrote:Doesnt come across that way to me Mike.
Those ouside the city are those who have rejected Christ.
The day of Grace is over at this point, and no-body outside will ever get in.
2 thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those<--- FIRST CENTURY JEWS... who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to YOU who are afflicted and to US AS WELL when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those<--APOSTATE JEWS. who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
Ummm...yeah. FYI...2 Thess 1 is talking about what happened in the first century. Read it carefully. Those who Paul was writing to would receive relief from the tribulation that THEY were suffering at the coming of the Lord. Not US, but them. Personal pronouns pally!!!

Paul also said that "we" who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord. Did Paul see this or did he die? Can it be possible that we can interpret "we" to mean those who experience the noted "coming" on "that day". Did Jesus come in flaming fire in the past? If so, how did Paul know that it would happen to "them"? He already said in 1 Thes 5 that as to "times and seasons the day of the Lord will come as a theif" and Jesus said it will happen at a time "when you do not expect" (Matt 24:42)

psychohmike wrote: So what do you do with Isaiah 65 and following? That passage clearly states that there will be sinners along with saints in the new heaven and the new earth.

Not if it is symbolic. If it's literally speaking of the new heavens and earth and sinners are there then all the NT writings that say otherwise would be in error.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:13 am

I've always heard taught that there was a chasm fixed between the two that could not be crossed. In the afterlife that is.

I think people can be saved through the lake of fire and that's why this verse is worded the way it is because it implies this.
Rev 22.17 IMHO includes people in the LOF as part of the "whosoever" because the Bride are the believers already so who could the Spirit and the Bride be speaking to but unbelievers in the LOF.

Post by **_psychohmike** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:56 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:I've always heard taught that there was a chasm fixed between the two that could not be crossed. In the afterlife that is.

I think people can be saved through the lake of fire and that's why this verse is worded the way it is because it implies this.
Rev 22.17 IMHO includes people in the LOF as part of the "whosoever" because the Bride are the believers already so who could the Spirit and the Bride be speaking to but unbelievers in the LOF.

I see what you are saying. Why have evangelization if there aren't people to evangelize.

But how can someone that has gone to EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION be evangelized. I mean...if they no longer exist, how can they be evangelized?

Mike

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:27 pm

But how can someone that has gone to EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION be evangelized. I mean...if they no longer exist, how can they be evangelized

But everybody gets resurrected even the ones who faced everlasting destruction. And those whose names were not found in the book of life are found in the lake of fire.

Post by **_psychohmike** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:25 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:But how can someone that has gone to EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION be evangelized. I mean...if they no longer exist, how can they be evangelized

But everybody gets resurrected even the ones who faced everlasting destruction. And those whose names were not found in the book of life are found in the lake of fire.

So what you are suggesting is that EVERLASTING is not really everlasting and that DESTRUCTION is not really destruction?

Maybe you can give me a definition of everlasting destruction. And how someone can be evangelized that has gone on to the second death.

I guess I never really thought about someone still alive after going to the second death.

Mike

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:02 pm

I am not answering for Steve. I'm sure he has an explanation.

I think I have dealt with the so-called "everlasting destruction" quite a bit on this forum. But I'll put it in a nutshell on this post.

Nowhere does the Bible speak of "everlasting destruction". The Greek word "aiōnios" has been mistranslated as "everlasting" and should have been translated as "aeonion" (the English equivalent). "aiōnios" is the adjectival form of the Greek word "aiōn" which means "age".

The word "destruction" in the scriptures does not mean "annihilation". In several places, it refers to the destruction of the original form in order that the pure form may come forth.

For example, I Peter 1:7 speaks of "gold being destroyed through fire."
We know that fire does not annihate gold. But when gold ore is heated with fire, the original form of the ore is destroyed, and the pure gold is separated from its impurities.

An analogous process takes place in the case of the aeonion destruction of the wicked. When the wicked are raised again, they still have the same character. This evil character must be dealt with by means of the purifying fire of God so that the nature is refined, and the person, as he was meant to be, comes forth.

Post by **_psychohmike** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:12 pm

Paidion wrote:I am not answering for Steve. I'm sure he has an explanation.

I think I have dealt with the so-called "everlasting destruction" quite a bit on this forum. But I'll put it in a nutshell on this post.

Nowhere does the Bible speak of "everlasting destruction". The Greek word "aiōnios" has been mistranslated as "everlasting" and should have been translated as "aeonion" (the English equivalent). "aiōnios" is the adjectival form of the Greek word "aiōn" which means "age".

The word "destruction" in the scriptures does not mean "annihilation". In several places, it refers to the destruction of the original form in order that the pure form may come forth.

For example, I Peter 1:7 speaks of "gold being destroyed through fire."
We know that fire does not annihate gold. But when gold ore is heated with fire, the original form of the ore is destroyed, and the pure gold is separated from its impurities.

An analogous process takes place in the case of the aeonion destruction of the wicked. When the wicked are raised again, they still have the same character. This evil character must be dealt with by means of the purifying fire of God so that the nature is refined, and the person, as he was meant to be, comes forth.

Thanks Pai...Thats some good info.